Three Irish women who travelled to the UK to have abortions have now gone to Strasbourg to argue that Ireland's strict abortion law violated their rights.

[TinselInYourBum]

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/12/091209_ireland_abortion_et_sl.shtml]

God and I still can't do links.

I strongly feel that abortion should be kept illegal in Ireland.

MN Jury?

The access to abortion, narrow though it is, is legal access to abortion. I don't think in practice it is only available if you are 'about to die'.

Yes, child poverty is a disgrace. I would like to believe most Irish people are ashamed of it, whether they vote Yes or No. The equivocation you posit, though, that Irish society prefers the rights of the unborn over the needs of young families, and that there's hypocrisy involved on the part of those who oppose wider access to abortion, does not really hold water.

What Irish society chooses to do about child poverty is up to individual voters next general election. Not everyone who cares about the plight of young families or disadvantaged children is in a position to do any more than vote for candidates who claim to be committed to improvement. There are many who contribute in their own small way to children's welfare and do what they can.

Social conditions for children throughout the western world have improved substantially but gradually over the 20th century. There are may factors involved in creating and maintaining poverty; while a relatively short period of economic expansion (the Celtic Tiger years), may provide a dramatic juxtaposition of prosperity vs. disadvantage, it does not guarantee the disappearance of a problem that has proved very intractable in other societies as well as Ireland's, some of which have a longer history of economic development and have historically enjoyed far greater and wider prosperity that Ireland has (the US for example)

i have had an abortion. never regretted it, hav ehad a msicarriage to (and two more different events emotionally could not be found!)

lots of women have.

i think unless you really respect all life and are wholly vegetarian there is no consistency in prizing that group of cells over the wishes of the pregnant woman. pregnancy is not a fully benign state even when you want the child - much less so when you don't. Just look on the pregnancy boards - those women aren't pregnant for the hell of it, they're doing t because they want their babies.

cuddles wobbly tummy and heads for one of many early nights in this pregnancy

Mathanxiety, when we have a referendum on abortion, please come back and vote yes! I'll vote yes of course but all the rosary bead clackers will be out in force for that one (if and when the day ever comes).

The celtic tiger has disappeared back from where he came from. Children's allowance cut by 10% yesterday.

Unfortunately, my husbands phobia is very deep seated. He has to see his GP on a regular basis for an eye cream & believe me, I have seen him come out in cold sweats at the thought!

I do feel let down by him, in truth, it is hard not to when I feel that I have been through SO much....but I have worked with people with phobias & I know it isn't as easy as with holding, (in this case, sex) from them. Which, incidentally I did....well kind of, we didn't have sex for several months after the abortion.

He was actually all ready to talk to his dr, until he read a very badly, selfishly written account of one man's experience. That has put him off again.

Even though we are both on the wait list for a permanent solution, it is likely that mine will come sooner (his is 7yrs wait) so not really much he could have done, even straight after dc2 birth! we would still be waiting. Unless we can find $2000+!

I am not making excuses, here when I live, there are just huge wait lists.

We are squirrelling away money, but it takes time with schools uniforms to buy (new year in Jan), school fees, Christmas coming! We'll get there!

'I am not in the slightest bit ashamed of it.'

Then why hide behind a namechange?

Are you directing this at me, Expat? I don't think I have said that, but my name is differentnameforthis...."this" being mumsnet.

I have posted a lot under this name on different chats.

My grandmother, a vehement Catholic, protested against legalising abortion in the UK in the late 60s. She had a standing order to Cafod. The fact that she donated money to, IIRC, what she called 'starving babies in Africa' did not IMO give her the right to deny other women control over their own bodies.

As it happens, she'd become considerably more liberal in later life, even resigned to the idea of a married priesthood one day (on the pragmatic grounds that fewer and fewer men were prepared to sign up to life-long celibacy). Not sure she ever became pro-choice, though. Although oddly God spoke to her when she nearly died after my uncle's birth and told her it was OK to use contraception to avoid any further dangerous pregnancies...

differentnameforthis, even if you're not ashamed, i think it's common sense to be cautious. Somebody once did a one-off drive by 'i know who you are' post. You never know who's worked out who you are. Do you want everybody at the school gates to know everything you say on mn?

we should all be careful when revealing private stuff.

re-reading my post, just want to say that i don't think you should be ashamed at all, sorry if it came across like that. I just mean that private business is private and it's prudent to do name-changes for stuff you wouldn't talk about with the milkman.

maggie, I agree with you & you didn't come across as anything but concerned re the privacy aspect.

Thank you.

there are pletny more famous people than i to gun for who have been open about having abortions.

also: re the sovereignty aspect - the whole poit of international standards for things is to ensure fair treatment across national boundaries - part of the fall out from the world wars.

something being law in a particular country does not make it right.

I agree with the OP - abortion should remain illegal in Ireland. It's just a pity it's not illegal in England too.

women dying in backstreet abortion clinics more to your taste then mrsrigby

To follow on from what EdgarAleNPie said on the sovereignty aspect:

the human rights set out in the European Convention on Human Rights are considered to be the most basic, fundamental rights people are entitiled to - and they are inalienable. Which means that no state can legislate to deprive a person from any of those rights, whether it does so democratically or not.

A majority does not have any sovereign right to deprive a part of the population of their rights.

mrsrigby, as I have posted already, I was unwanted. Not sure how my conception came about, but mum was adamant that she wanted no more after my brother & sister.

Along came me...dad was v pleased, mum not. So distraught was she that unable to seek a termination (because of dads wishes) she tried to self abort.

She threw herself down the stairs & tried the hot bath/gin method that was (apparently) so popular in the 60s.

She stopped short of putting a knitting needle inside herself, as she was worried about the damage this was cause HER!

I of course, survived. But not without the physical scars of her efforts.

And the emotional ones, after she told me this at the age of 16.

Yes, lets make abortion illegal. Let have lots of little unwanted children putting a strain - if not on their parents - on an already strained system!

Top idea that!

No, maggieanfiarua. I'd rather they:

a) educated themselves;
b) used a reliable form of contraceptive;
c) if they were too stupid for b to seek emergency contraception;
d) and if all this seems too hard, keep their legs closed.

In this day and age, there is no reason why abortions are needed. It always comes back to womens choice. Well I chose to educate myself in how abortions are proformed, I chose to not have sex until I was ready, and when I was (20) I chose to use a condom. The 1 time I had unprotected sex, it was with my now DH and we immediately made the choice to go and get emergency contraception the morning after.

do you know how abortion is performed Mrs Rigby?

or do you believe horror stories from pro-life websites?

'Are you directing this at me, Expat? I don't think I have said that, but my name is differentnameforthis...."this" being mumsnet. '

No, at 'doingmyjob'.

MrsRigby, there are people on here who have falled pregnant after condom break AND failed MAP.

People who have fallen pregnant on the Mirena coil, which is more effective than female sterilisation.

different, you're a bigger person than I am, because if my husband didn't get over his phobia after what you've been through that would be the end of our sex life before I went through another operation.

When DH was swithering, I told him I'd sure get sterilised, and then spend the next fortnight abroad with my family. Alone, possibly a month. So he'd need to take time off work and make childcare arrangements for our three children during the interim.

He got over his little 'i don't like needles' real quick.

FWIW, whilst it's not an option for me, I firmly believe it should be readily available to women.

Mrs Rigby, I had a Mirena coil, it is supposedly very reliable, it's why I had one. I didn't get emergency contraception because I didn't know it had failed.

Incidently, I think I probably should name change for these posts, but I don't, I keep this name, which I post under all the time.
I do this as I've had to hide all this IRL, I don't want to have to do it on here too, and whilst I'm not about to tell everyone I know what I did, I feel strong enough now to stand by my decision, it was the right one.

I'm not sure that taking the morning after pill os inline with the catholic church's policies at all Mrsrigby.
Honestly, what a sanctimonious post. Good for you that you never had to face the hard decision of what to do about am unwanted pregnancy.
These anti abortionists thrive on self righteousness don't they?
Where's the compassion for women that made different choices to you?
And a big slap on the back for managing to keep your legs shut until you were twenty

oh yes, keep their legs crossed.

notice there's never a corresponding message to men to keep it in their trousers with these types of posts.

My problem, mrsrigby is that I didn't have unprotected sex!

I used the minipill, and a condom!

So how is that not being educated?

I know this is an emotive issue and people will never agree but I feel strongly about it so here goes

• personally I don't think I would ever have an abortion but I think the right to a safe abortion should be available to all

-I come from a Catholic country where abortion, although legal is very very limited and not really available, because the doctors do not like being seen as being in favour of it

this does not mean abortion don't happen, they often do performed by people who are not qualified and in unsafe conditions

and many of the doctors will actually do the abortions privately for quite a fee, and you get there by knowing someone who know someone and so on

so ultimately if you have the means you have access
the reality it that the ones least able to afford may often be the ones who need it

as for the Church's view on contraception I think it borders on criminal

I too was very anti-abortion until I found myself pregnant half way through my law degree 12 years ago. It was the result of a split condom on bank holiday weekend when I was visiting family out in the Sticks with current boyfriend. No way could I access morning-after pill without asking parents to drive me to the doctors. I kept fingers crossed but I was unlucky. The moment I found out I was pregnant I was 110% sure I did not want this baby. The baby's father was very supportive but we clearly had no future. Every day that went by until I could have this "alien" inside me removed was a day too long. I felt very very sick every minute of every day and very unhappy. I am now 32 weeks pregnant with a much-wanted baby and the feeling is completely different to before. I know I will love this baby with all my heart and I am not sure how I would have felt if I had been forced to keep the unwanted child all those years back. I just say don't judge someone until you have been in their shoes. You never know how you will react if it happens to you.

Firstly, can I just say that all I am is expressing is an opinion.

I realise that this is a sensitive subject, but can we please refrain from personal attacks.

differentnameforthis I'm very sorry for what your mother did to you.

edgaralenpie I work in the NHS, so that's how I know how they are carried out. Before that I read alot - this was before Google.

muggglewump please don't change your name, there is no need. We just have a difference of opinion that is all. My real life name is Tracey-Anne Rigby, I am not ashamed of my views and I stand by them. I will not hide. You should do the same, you believe the course of action you took was the right one - fair enough.

mrsruffallo I don't know whether you were assuming I was catholic, or sticking up for catholic women. For the record I am a strict athiest. I'm informed by my father-in-law, who happens to be a deacon that officially catholics can not use protection. However, he and his late wife asked their priest could they use condoms and the priest gave them his blessing. I never had to face the hard decision on what to do with an unwanted pregnancy, because I didn't sleep around and always used protection when I did.

expatinscotland men can't get pregnant.

Had I have experienced an unwanted pregnancy I would have kept the baby anyway and dealt with my issues, or have the baby adopted.

Again let me just say that all we have here are differences in opinion. Let's not be nasty and start attacking each other.