Three Irish women who travelled to the UK to have abortions have now gone to Strasbourg to argue that Ireland's strict abortion law violated their rights.

[TinselInYourBum]

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/12/091209_ireland_abortion_et_sl.shtml]

God and I still can't do links.

I strongly feel that abortion should be kept illegal in Ireland.

MN Jury?

The answer to both questions is of course no in my OPINION. But just because the latter is wrong does not automatically make the former right, does it?

Yes I am anti abortionist, and I believe, through life experience that many many people other than myself hold this view also.

I am not in the slightest bit ashamed of it.

Convenient cherry picking there want,

Seperate DNA? yep. So is the tapeworm in my intestines, doesn't make it a sacred life does it?
Heartbeat at 6 weeks? Fine, but only by using my circulatory system, completely devoid of independent ability for life.
Ability for independent life at 21weeks? Ok, but not beforem which proves my point as much as yours. None of these facts add up to the next few "facts" you come up with, that there are 2 seperate independent lives. None of them.

You use some actual facts to "prove" your own opinions. Thats where you are getting confused.

But anti abortionists sounds cold, mrsruffalo...they wouldn't want us to think that they are cold, would they!?

What stuns me, beyond anything is that it is mostly women who hold these views. Or that is my experience, anyway!

I would loved to have confided in my sister during my turmoil. With not speaking to my mum, she has always been my go-to in times of need.

She is anti abortion & I know what I could've expected. No one in my family knows, because they are all anti abortion. I either hold onto my family & keep my secret, with nowhere to turn, or lose my family!

What a choice!

Actually, not ^completely& different DNA, surely?

Doesn't biology dictate that mother/child have at least some DNA in common!?

Oh and nobody ever thought the world was flat. Think about that one for a minute.

I usually get too worked up to participate on threads about abortion, because the high-handed arrogance of pro-lifers in thinking they have ANY right to tell me what to do with my body because of their beliefs drives me up the wall.

Atm, I'm pregnant with a much-wanted child, I've never had an abortion or even a pregnancy scare and for that, I consider myself extremely luck. Because shit happens and contraception fails all the time, and we're all young and stupid at one point - but mostly, because I would never underestimate how painful an experience an abortion can be.

Three things:

Firstly, if there was truly no doubt that life begins at conception, as the pro-lifers suggest, then we wouldn't even be having the debate. As it is, the scientific community is still very much agnostic on the issue, except for those with a political/religious agenda. And it is completely inconsistent to claim that life begins at conception, but then say abortion is ok in very few circumstances, such as when the life of the mother is in danger - it's either murder or it isn't. And what about IVF? Is that ok? Because foetuses get destroyed there too.

Secondly, the argument that it's a choice to enter into a sexual relationship, you know the consequences, so you must live with them is ignorant and unsympathetic (no, sometimes it's not a choice to enter into a sexual relationship) and deeply, deeply misogynistic. Let's go back to the Victorian age, let's call sexually active women harlots and punish them, because they knew what they were getting into. It's such a short slippery slope to "she asked for it", isn't it.

And thirdly, and forgive my pedantry, the court case has nothing to do with Brussels or the EU. The European Convention of Human Rights is entered into by members of the Council of Europe, an organisation which is independent and with much wider membership than the EU. It's based in Strasbourg and has its own court, the European Court of Human Rights, where the case will be heard.

There, rant over.

And is people thinking the world is flat really a comparison?

Did finding out it was round make people want to drive into a wall? Or make them want to slam something into their stomach?

Did it make them depressed? Keep them awake at night, crying & when they finally found sleep, did it give them nightmares. Make them feel all crampy & sick & hot & achy? Did it make them want to see blood every time they used the toilet?

Did they think that God would not let them wake up after their operation, to punish them?

Actually people dId think the world was flat and the whole of astronomy was originally built upon this assumption. If you doubt this then all you have to do is google it!

I am not going to contribute any more to this debate as it is clearly pointless.

I make sure my facts are actual facts but that is more than can be said for many people who are desperate to hang onto their right to abortions whenever and for whatever reason and at any stage of pregnancy.

Well, I suppose life has become very very cheap and whilst millions of women go around exerciusing their 'rights' it will never change.

Life is not cheap. You are right there. No one ever said it was. But I do believe forcing a woman to carry on with a pregnancy effectively cheapens her life.

I find it interesting, inciteful & thought-provoking that you never commented on my seeking sterilization, (and the refusal on 3 occasions) or a vasectomy for my dh. Nor my usage of 2 forms of contraception when I fell pregnant.

Nor my great achievement in 20yrs of avoiding an unwanted pregnancy. Yet, when I needed outside (medical) help to prevent further pregnancy, I was refused & thus fell pregnant!

You can argue your side, but you cannot see that despite my very best efforts I still fell pregnant. I stuck to MY beliefs that I wouldn't bring an unplanned/unwanted child into this world, why does that bother people so much?

i think everything sensible to be said on this topic was said on which didn't descend into bunfight territory

anyone who has the time to bleat about women aborting unwanting foetuses whilst millions of living breathing children die every day of preventable disease is evidently not really a pro-lifer.

wanttodomyjob, interesting also that you name changed for this!

I don't think the question was originally about the rights or wrongs of abortion, but rather whether the Irish should be allowed to decide on their own legislation.

I think they should, but the problem is, I'm not sure if they really have decided, or if the Catholic Church has decided for them.

Given the large numbers of women who travel to the UK, considering that many more might also travel if they could afford it, a lot of Irish people obviously disagree with the law as it currently stands. Perhaps it is time to open the isssue within Ireland itself, although I don't think they should be told they can't decide on their own laws.

To another poster who talked about effective contraception, yes, that would be ideal, but unfortunately it's not always possible. Contraception does fail, and not all sex is consensual, which means that not all women have the opportunity to decide to use contraception.

differentnameforthis, I'm so sorry to hear of what you went through. It must have been horrendous.

Absolutely true alexppolis mum. Any lapsed catholic who was baptised in Ireland but is no longer a practising catholic, please register with www.countmeout.ie

When the stats are compiled and the government have to acknowledge the fact that less than 50% of the population will nail their colours to the mast and call themselves catholic, then it will be the catlyst for huge change.

Change we badly need, to the education system, health system even. There were some hilarious stories on roller coaster the other night, people talking about their parents in hospital.. one poster was saying her mum had no time for the church, btu they chased her round the hospital like something from the benny hill show. and another woman made it quite clear that she no longer considered herself catholic, her adult children were chasing away the priests,and yet when her children drove home for a shower, the priests gave her the last rites. another woman's husband was in for a routine minor op and they put roman catholic on his chart. he noticed it, and scribbled out. the nurse came back and wrote back in roman catholic. so he scribbled it out again. then she wrote it back in again!!!!!!!! another poster who is a nurse by profession was saying a man came in in a dog collar and was given a private room then they discovered he was only a protestant! so they booted him onto private ward and gave the private room to a young lad having an ingrown toenail fixed in a switch around!!! The stories were hilarious.

sorry booted him onto the public ward I meant.

Differentname, very saddened at your experiences. I think what stood out for me in your description of the general circumstances was one reason you cited for your DH to not get a vasectomy hospital phobia. I feel it's a pity he couldn't get over this and put himself on a list, take some all, in fact of the responsibility off your shoulders. None of my business, though, and I think you were badly let down by the medical world, the bureaucracy, your own family bad situation all around.

Alexpolismum -- I agree with your points. I think a lot of Irish people do disagree with the law, whether they might ever consider abortion or not. However, I don't think it's all some sort of brainwashing by the Catholic Church that would make them hold the opinion that limited abortion rights are the only appropriate way of dealing with this question in Ireland. There is also the conservative legal philosophy/idea that hard cases make bad laws, and by definition, the question of abortion is always a hard case.

It will be interesting to see how the debate shapes up this time, if it does at all (the Court may decide against the plaintiffs) given the fall from grace of the Catholic Church. It seems to me that the pro-choice lobby's attempt to circumvent the referendum decisions of yesteryear (which is what this suit is about) may backfire, since the Treaty referenda have shown that Irish voters seem to be susceptible to a campaign that paints Irish national sovereignty as an endangered species. It's not all about right to abortion/ right to life this time around -- there's the question of Irish sovereignty bound up in all of this too.

Debating the question of abortion in Ireland pretty much always ends up with a high degree of polarisation, each side screaming at the other, not much change in the script on either side over the years, and hardly any common ground. (Except maybe an unspoken assumption that this is 'women's business', which is very telling in itself.) You have baby=tapeworm on the one hand, and the X case on the other. It's depressing.

"Actually people dId think the world was flat and the whole of astronomy was originally built upon this assumption. If you doubt this then all you have to do is google it!"

oh good lord you are confused again. You seem to be thinking of the fact that most people thought the Earth was the centre of the universe and the sun rotated around us. That was the assumption that astronomical principles were founded on.
Nobody ever thought the world was flat. As far back as you can go, from ancient greek texts to primitive cave paintings, the earth is depicted as a sphere. And anyone with eyes can look out and see a horizon, which in and of itself shows that the world is not flat.

Please look somewhere other than google and wikipedia for your "facts". you cannot contribute to a debate you don't understand.

Tell me this then, pro-lifers...how many abortions happen in the UK every year? In Europe? In the world? You want to save each and every foetus?
Who is going to pay for these millions of babies? Who is going to look after them? Don't you find it interesting that a country like Ireland with no abortion also has shocking rates of child poverty for such a rich country?
I find it interesting how pro-lifers find unborn children sacred and worth their trouble, but not their problem once born.

I don't think it's always so 'either -- or' Pooexplosions. Portraying someone who is opposed to abortion as not caring about poor children is not really an honest argument.

I think it is. I didn't say they don't care about poor children, I'm arguing that if you really did think that each life is sacred, that every child should be born, then you should care as much about that child after it is born.
Does every member of SPUC also have a direct debit for Barnardos? I doubt it. I'd like to know why an unborn life is worth their angst and protection, yet an actual life is less important?

How so you know someone doesn't care about each and every child after they are born, though? You don't know if the members of SPUC have or don't have a direct debit to Barnardo's, or whether they contribute to improving the lives of children in some way. You can't assume that they think a born child's life is 'less important' simply because they have expressed their preference for a narrow access to abortion.

You cannot assume that everyone who opposes widening legal access to abortion in Ireland does not care for or support children in some way, or care less about children who are born than those who are unborn. When you say they "should care as much" about children who are born, you are implying they don't.

DH had to get over his 'hospital phobia' real quick or he wasn't getting any sex from me.

i'm really sorry for your experience, differentname, but i think your husband's a bit of a twonk to have let you go through all that and not taken responsibility for permanent birth control if the two of you agreed no more children.

'I am not in the slightest bit ashamed of it.'

Then why hide behind a namechange?

Ah come on mathanxiety...if everyone who voted no to abortion was actively trying to improve the lives of children here we would be able to tell!
I am sure that some people who are against abortion (and make a point of arguing against it) do things to help children. But certainly not all. I'm talking about society, not just individuals. Why does Ireland have such bad services for children? Why, in the middle of the fastest growing economy in the west, did we have a child poverty level to be ashamed of? Because as a society we are quick to defend the rights of the unborn, to prevent women from dealing with unwanted pregnancies, but slow to support those with young children.
You can't have it both ways. its hypocritical.

And "widening legal access to abortion" implies that there is legal access to abortion. There is not. Unless you are about to die, in practice thats statistically insignificant.

Those of you who have been through the experience of an abortion, please don't feel you need to justify yourselves. You have done nothing wrong.

Zealots and bigots are so convinced of their fundamental rightness that nothing anyone else says will sway their opinions.

This thread makes me very glad indeed that I don't live in Ireland.