Three Irish women who travelled to the UK to have abortions have now gone to Strasbourg to argue that Ireland's strict abortion law violated their rights.

[TinselInYourBum]

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/12/091209_ireland_abortion_et_sl.shtml]

God and I still can't do links.

I strongly feel that abortion should be kept illegal in Ireland.

MN Jury?

Pooexplosion you can dispute away, the fact is that at 4 weeks gestation the fetus has a heartbeat, circulation and a rapidly developing nervous system. Unfortunately most abortions are carried out way way later than this- I am not sure if it is a good or a bad thimng that we 'REAL PEOPLE' will never really know the horrors of being aborted.

And sorry to say this, you may in actual fact be full of compassion and humanity but what you said and the way you said it is as callous as it gets. thats not a personal attack, simply an observation.

Expat the point I was making, is that for every woman who goes into having an abortion fully informed, fully autonomous, no external pressure, i would bet money that there is another one for whom it is just another degrading life experience.

so, following your line of reasoning, abortion should therefore not be an option for anyone.

So what if it has a heartbeat and a developing nervous sytem at 4 weeks? At 4 weeks and past it it can still be reabsorbed into my own tissue. None of those things prove anything.
You are spectacularly missing my point.

And I think you sound callous with your disregard for the lives of women in your concern for the unborn. Just an observation.

very long thread so forgive me for jumping in without reading every post so far

the undeniable fact is that abortion being illegal in Ireland has not stopped a hell of a lot of people from doing it. I know as many people in Ireland who've had abortions as I do people in England who have (and that's just the ones who've told me about it!)

its is not a choice between:
legal abortions Vs no abortions (or even less abortions)

it is in fact a choice between:
legal abortions Vs back street abortions or traveling to another country, often alone with little or no pre or post procedure care

so I don't think that whether you agree with abortion itself is the real question, The real question is that if someone IS going to do it (and they will and do in Irl despite the law), is it better to be under proper advice and care or not

And, Expat, abortion isnt a completely benign and safe proceedure for many women, thankfully research is finally being done to try and identify which women may be particularly vulnerable to the after effects of having had an abortion.

Physically there are risks, of course, the same as any surgical proceedure.

do you honestly assume i'm so ignorant i don't know that, wantto?

it's the same procedure i had to evacuate a missed miscarriage from my uterus.

far safer in the hands of a skilled professional than in a back alley or bedroom somewhere.

Pooexplosion

I think you are spectactularly missing my point.

To people who dont want to hear, no amount of arguing or debating or facts will alter their course.

I have made my point on here without once stating that I 'dont care' about the woman seeking an abortion or that she is 'not important'. if you can find a place here where i have said that then please put a link in so that I can check it and apologise.

And again you are using terms like 'so what'
Please can you try to show a modium of respect for peoples who strongly held beliefs are contrary to your own!

"And, Expat, abortion isnt a completely benign and safe proceedure for many women, thankfully research is finally being done to try and identify which women may be particularly vulnerable to the after effects of having had an abortion."

Surely that's more of a reason to make it legal, so that the treatment can be done as safely as possible and with full care before and after?

I have to agree wanttodomyjob.

From the women I have known who have had abortions, some regretted what they did and all required long term counselling and help.

notanun when you have your baby killed/terminated/aborted it will not be a bundle of cells.

Did I read correctly that you are 5 weeks pregnant?

The baby stopped being a bundle of cells at 4 weeks. By 5 weeks what was a round mass of cells has elongated and a head and tail are distinguishable. The central nervous system has begun to develop and the babys brain and spinal cord have started to form.

It's for this reason I believe, that if a woman does have an abortion it should be before 6 weeks.

Traces of the eyes and ears are discernible and the liver and kidneys have begun to develop as are the muscle and bone.

Here's the clincher, by the end of the 5th week the babys heart has begun to beat.

I'm not having a go here, but it's common to get the response "it's just a bunch of cells". Does it help you to go through with what your doing by lessening it. I've seen a 5 week old - I miscarried one 2 weeks ago, yes it didn't look like a newborn baby but you could tell it was a baby in the very early stages. Definately not a bundle of cells.

Kaloki, I hear what you say, but is more care going to help the woman who feel after wards they have made a terrible mistake or who were pressured into it.

'notanun when you have your baby killed. . .'

you just couldn't resist, could you?

hope that doesn't upset you too much, notanun.

MrsRigby
I am very sorry to hear about your lost one,
I hope being on here isnt making it harder.

Iwant, you don't seem to have any respect for my beliefs, so I'm sondering why I should afford you any?
You keep stating your "facts" when most of them are just your opinions. You cannot tell me where life begins as that is not a matter of scientific fact.

And mrsrigby, we are all a bunch of cells. You may see a 5 week foetus as an actual human being, but many many people will disagree with you. You are not definitively correct, you are proferring your opinion.

This is an important point neither of you seem to understand.

"muggglewump I'm afraid I have to disagree again, I didn't get lucky - I just used my brain and contraception."

You fucking bitch.

I had a mirena coil, didn't you read that?

Now I have an implant, and I've been sterilised and I still do pregnancy tests.

You just hate women don't you?

I hate you if that helps.

muggle, she's not worth it.

i'm sorry you had to read that.

my mouth fell open reading that, too.

especially the 'mirena wouldn't be my first choice' as if it's somehow superior that she could even take the pill!

i can't (hypertension).

"Kaloki, I hear what you say, but is more care going to help the woman who feel after wards they have made a terrible mistake or who were pressured into it."

I think they need more care before so that they are more prepared/informed. Hopefully then less will feel pressured into it, and those that are determined to go through with it will be better prepared for the aftermath.

Again notanun I'm sorry.

I call it killing, some call it abortion and others termination.

wanttodomyjob thank you. Being on here doesn't make it harder. It's just hard to comprehend that anyone would willingly take a life. What happened was just one of those things that happen to some women, I'm just very lucky and grateful that I already had a son. I love him so much. DH and I have already started TTC again. Having a miscarriage has just made me value life so much more and that's probably why I felt I had to post here and challenge peoples opinions.

Pooexplosion
Have I said I know when 'life' begins?
No.
What I have said is factual information about what a developing fetus is at a gestation.
Knowing what I know i.e that creatures with even very rudimentary nervous systems and circulatory sytems still have the capacity for pain and distress, I choose to beieve (please note the distinctions I am making between scientific knowledge+ fact and my own inference or beliefs) that abortion must be painful for the living/non 'living' thing that is aborted.

Are you clear on my stance now.

You do not have to agree, but I do take exception to being told I am giving my beliefs as facts, which I am not.

and mrsrigby your last post aimed at notanun is the typed equivelant of the spuc nutjobs standing on streetcorners with their disgusting posters. I find it abhorrent that you singled her out in that way to purposefully hurt her.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

'Again notanun I'm sorry.'

Another 'apology' after you've written something disgustingly judgemental and that particular individuals that you know are on the thread will find upsetting and personally insulting.

FFS, you must really think we're all morons not to suss out your lame game.

Er, excuse me. I didn't say that I didn't believe it was a baby. Read again. "You are entitled to believe that a bundle of cells is a life. Others are entitled to believe otherwise. And btw, not all women who are pro-choice think that a foetus isn't a life. You over simplify and misunderstand at will." I am one of those that is pro choice and believes it is a life. I was defending anybody's right to believe differently to you, I made no assertions about my own beliefs and I do not deserve your lecture.

Does it help me to lessen it? I haven't bloody lessened it. Tell me where I did that. Come and walk a day in my shoes. Don't eat or sleep for a week, feel suicidal, cry endlessly, have panic attacks, pass out, read everything you can on the development of the baby inside you, try and desperately come to terms with what you are about to do. Don't you dare tell me I'm doing this lightly. Don't you dare presume to know a single thing about me.

And I absolutely did not ask for a description of a child at the gestation I am carrying. I found out I was pregnant at 3wks and 4 days, that's 12 days past conception. I made an immediate appointment with my GP. I was seen within hours. I have to wait weeks for the procedure. Don't you dare talk to me about leaving it and justifying the decision to myself.

What do you want? Tell me honestly. Not a statistic. Or a theory. A real person who will die if forced to continue this pregnancy. The pill, condoms and fertility awareness combined failed, a continued pregnancy would kill me. What the hell do you want me to do?

And I had a miscarriage at a significantly later gestation than this. I know what I saw but thanks for your vivid descriptions.

expat, thank you for your concern.

Thanks Expat.

I know I'll never be free of it though. I did it so I have to pay.

I think it was the right thing, so I stand up for it, but sometimes it hurts.
That really took my breath away.

For what its worth, i also think its killing, and that all the otjher terms are sanitised ones that are used to avoid the reality.

muggglewump there's no need for that language or personal attack. I'm shocked at how aggressive you are and did think for a second about reporting it.

I'm sorry if you object to my calling it killing, but that is what it is. Women who chose to do so call it abortion and some can't even bring themselves to use that word, they call it termination.