Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

The sad case of Meredith Kercher

933 replies

FreeGeorgeJackson · 03/12/2009 18:11

I feel for her parents. The trial seems to have gone on for ages doenst it?
I cant see ( form what i read) how kNox will get off.

OP posts:
dittany · 09/12/2009 18:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DuelingFanjo · 09/12/2009 19:17

no - as far as I know they didn't both say they hadn't used their phones. I think the phone 'evidence' is that their phones were both turned off at about 9.30 pm on the night of the murder and then they both got turned on again some time early in the morning - 6am or something like that.

This was seen as circumstantial evidence that they turned their phones of together for some reason (to go and threaten Meredith), though I think the defence did suggest that it's possible that they were just not getting a signal in Sollecito's flat.

Personally I don't think turning phones off is an indication of any guilt but I think that the prosecution wanted to prove some kind of pre-meditation.

I am not sure why Sollecito changed his story but from one of the statements I read it seems he was saying that he can't be sure Knox stayed at the flat - ie after he'd fallen asleep she might have left. I may be interpreting that wrongly though. I think if it were me and someone put the question to me 'Can you be sure that so and so stayed all night' - if I were asleep I would have to say 'no I can't be sure'.

DuelingFanjo · 09/12/2009 19:21

Actually the timings in the case (from when meredith left to go and have dinner with her friends to when The second lot of police arrived) are hotly contested in this case.

If we believe the police version then Sollecito didn't call the police to report the scene at the house until after the postal police arrived unannounced with one of Meredith's phones. Knox and Sollecito say they called the Police before the postal police arrived.

Phone records were used by the prosecution a lot during the trial.

ilovemydogandmrobama · 09/12/2009 19:26

The forensic evidence against AK is quite weak by any standard, and am surprised that DNA in such a degraded condition would be admitted as evidence.

Her behavior during the trial was odd, as one expects one accused of murder to be respectful and subdued. She wasn't either and really didn't do herself any favors and played right into the hands of journalists who had her tagged as this sexually promiscuous predator female.

DuelingFanjo · 09/12/2009 19:31

WHich behaviour do you mean? Behaviour in the courtroom during the trial?

ilovemydogandmrobama · 09/12/2009 19:38

yeah, smiling to journalists, wearing 'All You Need is Love'
t shirt at a murder trial.

PincoPallino · 09/12/2009 19:38

Sorry to lower the tone a bit but LondonLottie you cracked me up with "It's like trying to play Cluedo with the candelabra having slipped down the back of the sofa!"

So so true!

Jujubean77 · 09/12/2009 19:44

Her behavior throughout was to me, that of someone completely lacking in empathy or compassion. Sadly enough rather like someone who could commit, or be involved in, an awful crime such as this was.

DuelingFanjo · 09/12/2009 20:06

granted, I think the T-shirt was a bad idea. Though it was a gift from her dad and perhaps she just wanted to wear something he had gifted her. I don't think that is an indication of guilt or even that she didn't care about Meredith. More a silly thing done by a silly woman.

As for the smiling. I honestly think that when you've been in Jail for a year waiting for a trial and not able to see your family often... it would be natural, despite the gravity of the situation, to show a range of emotions including smiling.

A lack of empathy doesn't make one a murderer. If it does then I would be f**ed!

Portofino · 09/12/2009 20:53

DF - I think you are right about the t-shirt. A gift from a dad to a daughter in that situation...All you need is love! It's a supportive message rather a sinister thing. I agree that she has done some silly things during this process, but to me it still comes down to the evidence, or lack of it.

I think justice has been served for poor Meredith. The guy who killed her, or fatally wounded her at least, is already serving 30 years. I only hope that the bollocks that has surrounded the case of AK and RS does not help RG in his forthcoming appeal!

blinks · 09/12/2009 23:26

i'll be very interested to see what happens with the investigation into the chief prosecutor... it was put on hold so that he could prosecute this case.

he's being investigated for abuse of power.

what a coincidence!

not.

DuelingFanjo · 10/12/2009 08:47

You know, although I think that these two are innocent, I just can't see why or how a whole prosecution team (including the police) would be able to abuse their power, plant evidence or deliberately put two innocent people behind bars for more than 20 years.

But... I do think that there are so many inconsistant things about this case right from witnesses saying the police did enter the room Meredith was in and lift the duvet when the door was broken down (which the police denied) to the DNA on the knife, which is seriously flawed.

I can see that the truejustice site are still presenting some of the myths and lies about the case as possible truths.

On their timeline they have CCTV footage of Knox and Bleach Receipts listed. Sure they put the odd (?) but it's still there misleading people when both those things were not proved (were they even raised?) in court.

Am sure they don't want to be deliberately misleading but it is clouding the facts a little for people who might go there for information on the crime.

The reality is that there was no DNA evidence in the bedroom to prove Amanda Knox was there, and only one suspect piece to prove Sollecito was. It really would be impossible for someone to remove all their dna but still leave so much of another person's DNA at the scene. To remove two people's DNA and leave only guede's is just an incredible feat!

It's a lot easier to plant or contaminate evidence than it is clear a scene completely of your dna!

blinks · 10/12/2009 09:21

the overall issue is that AN and RS had no motive and no history of any kind of violent or sexually abusive behaviour. the fact that both of them had alternative plans for that evening that were changed by the other parties, suggests that it couldn't have been a premeditated attack (as the prosecution stated).

the mop that people often mention, suggesting some kind of 'smoking gun', was tested for blood and none was found. the

when the computers were destroyed by the 'experts', any hope of a more solid alibi was taken away from them.

i've yet to hear one piece of evidence that makes me change my mind in any way... much mention is made of evidence given behind closed doors that wasn't made public but i can't find any information about the nature of this... at this point the only thing that i've read is that some information was read to a closed court by request of the kercher family, suggesting that it was of a sensitive nature and not that they had more powerful evidence against the accused than what is already known publically.

if anyone has any more information regarding this i'd be very interested to read it...

goodbyesunhellomoon · 10/12/2009 09:45

Re the premeditated attack - I agree, they surely couldn't have arranged to murder her when they were not even supposed to be together that night

But - meredith and amanda really didn't like each other. Amanda thought her 'an insufferable prig' because of her dislike of Amanda's loud music, never flushing the toilet and bringing strange men back to the house when she'd only been there a week.

There was tension between the two of them. AK and RS turned up there with RG high on drugs - Meredith's had a go at them and it's turned nasty......

Just my guess, seeing as we're playing Cluedo here!

DuelingFanjo · 10/12/2009 09:53

"the fact that both of them had alternative plans for that evening that were changed by the other parties, suggests that it couldn't have been a premeditated attack (as the prosecution stated). "

I agree. I can't see how they would have got in touch with Guede to do this eitehr. At short notice when he had no phone and neither of them had his number in their phones.

It seems ridiculous to suggest that after Amanda Knox got the message saying she wasn't needed at work and Sollecito wasn't needed anymore to help his friend out that they both decided to threaten meredith instead.

"AK and RS turned up there with RG high on drugs "

honestly - smoking dope is not likely to give a person the motivation to carry out murder, planned or otherwise.

As for them not liking eachother, when you share a house then issues do crop up. having disagreements about household chores etc doesn't prove anything and certainly isn't a motive for murder. Plenty of people testified they got on well enough. Am sure that they both moaned about eachotehr to their friends, hardly unusual behaviour between flatmates.

Kathyis12feethighandbites · 10/12/2009 10:05

agree with Blinks for the most part.

re the drugs point DF made though, some people do get aggressive and paranoid on cannabis - most people just get giggly and unmotivated, but I have known people who wouldn't join in among groups of student drug takers because they had done it before and seen it had a different effect on them.
I don't find the prosecution's account inherently implausible, it's just that I haven't seen the evidence to convince me of it (though if there was more & better evidence we're not hearing I am willing to be convinced).
It is possible to imagine Knox behaving differently from how her parents & friends at home knew her - drugs & foreign travel can do that to people.

DuelingFanjo · 10/12/2009 10:20

Interesting article in G" (the Guardian) today. Not on their site yet though so I'll post it here in full:

G2: : : Not guilty?:

One fine day in 2006, asI was strolling down the streets of Florence, my mobile rang. "This is the police," a voice said in Italian. "Where are you? We are coming to get you."

Thus began my little adventure with the Italian criminal justice system. I had been living in Italy and working on a book with the Italian journalist Mario Spezi, about a serial killer known as the "Monster of Florence". Over a period of 11 years, the Monster had ritually murdered 14 young people making love in the hills of Florence. The investigation had become one of the longest and most expensive in Italian history, with more than 100,000 men investigated. The real Monster had never been caught, although many innocent people were jailed along the way. In our book, Spezi and I criticised a powerful prosecutor in the Monster case named Giuliano Mignini.

After that phone call, I was required to appear before Mignini, where he and several policemen interrogated me for almost three hours, in Italian, with no interpreter and no access to a lawyer. During the interrogation, Mignini accused me of several serious crimes, including planting a gun as false evidence to mislead police, obstruction of justice, and being an accessory to murder. He hinted that I might have had doings with a satanic cult. He demanded I confess to these crimes and said that if I did not, he would indict me for reticenza, reticence, a form of perjury. When I refused to confess to these ludicrous and patently false accusations, he removed a tome from his bookshelf and, in a stentorian voice, indicted me on the spot, reading out the charges as a stenographer wrote it all down.

He said the indictments would be lifted to allow me to leave the country, but they would be reinstated later. I took the hint and left Italy with my family the next day.

My co-author, Spezi, fared far worse: two months later, Mignini ordered his arrest and accused him of involvement in the Monster of Florence murders. Spezi spent more than three weeks in prison until an international outcry forced his release.

A year later, this same prosecutor arrested Amanda Knox and her boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, for the murder of Knox's flatmate, Meredith Kercher. Because of my previous run-in with Mignini, I took a deep interest in the case;

I read many of the original reports and perused the forensic and DNA laboratory results; I reviewed the videos showing the collection of evidence at the crime scene. Through Spezi and other contacts in Italy, I learned important information about the case, some of which never appeared in the press. In my view, much of the press, British and American, has misunderstood the dynamics of this case.

When Mignini was in charge of a branch of the Monster of Florence investigation, allegations about his conduct were made. As a result, in 2006 he was indicted for abuse of office, illegally wiretapping journalists, threatening and harassing news organisations that criticised him, and obstruction of justice. The Florentine prosecutor assigned to his case, Luca Turco, said in court that Mignini had fallen "prey to a sort of delirium" and was "a person ready to go to any extreme defending himself from those who would criticise his investigation". These were serious crimes and prosecutors asked for a 10-month prison sentence. For his part, Mignini has steadfastly denied the charges. Nevertheless, his trial proceeded in the usual slow Italian fashion; the verdict has not yet been announced.

When the murder of Kercher occurred in November 2007, Mignini, under the shadow of the charges against him, was nevertheless assigned to the case as the chief prosecutor. He accepted the responsibility with great vigour.

Knox's role in this story begins in a pizzeria a few days after Kercher's murder. Knox had attracted the attention of investigators with her odd behaviour following the murder, especially when they saw her kissing and cuddling with her boyfriend at the scene of the crime. The clincher came when a senior police officer saw Knox nonchalantly eating pizza a few days later. He told the American investigator Paul Ciolino: "I knew she was guilty when I saw she was eating pizza . . . If it were me, I'd still be in bed crying."

Knox was asked to come to the police station for questioning. While waiting to be questioned, her odd behaviour continued - the Italian press reported that she did cartwheels. (She says she was doing yoga.) By the time the interrogation began, her behaviour had led police to suspect she had been involved in the murder. The Italians are expert interrogators; they have many psychological tricks; they routinely break down mafia bosses. She was interrogated all night. According to Knox, the police told her they had proof she was at the scene of the crime; they screamed at her; they said her boyfriend (who was being interrogated at the same time) had implicated her; they struck her on the back of the head when she didn't remember a fact; and they suggested to her the name of the killer (Patrick Lumumba). They repeatedly asked her to close her eyes and imagine how the murder might have occurred. After many hours of this, she had a "vision" of being in the apartment at the time of the murder, covering her ears to block out the victim's screams. She signed two statements to that effect.

What really happened in that interrogation? Did the police strike her, pressure her, scream at her, lie to her, coerce and threaten her? The police and prosecutors have consistently denied that any of this occurred. The police, however, have never produced a video tape, audio tape or a transcript of the interrogation, despite many demands from the defence. At first they said they had lost the tape; later they said there was no tape: they had failed to record the interrogation. Nor did they have a transcript. Indeed, no record of this interrogation apparently exists in any form. (Knox and her parents are being prosecuted for libelling the police by claiming she was struck.)

What we do have are the two statements she signed. I have read those statements. They are written in perfect, idiomatic, bureaucratic, "police jargon" Italian. It is difficult to imagine that a foreign student, who had been in Italy for just two months, would have understood what those statements said, let alone made them herself.

The morning following the interrogation, a huge press conference was held. The chief of police, Arturo De Felice, announced to great fanfare that the killers had been identified. He declared the case "substantially closed". They were Knox, her boyfriend, and the man she implicated, Lumumba. Not long afterwards, it has been reported, a photograph of Knox was mounted on the wall of police headquarters in Rome, next to pictures of famous Italian criminals, Red Brigade terrorists, mafiosi and serial killers.

The "case closed" announcement proved to be embarrassingly premature. The crime scene had not been analysed. When the analyses did start to roll in, it was discovered that an unknown person's DNA, blood and fingerprints were all over the crime scene, on the victim, inside her vagina, inside her purse, and elsewhere in the house. A handprint, in the victim's blood, was found underneath the body - a handprint that did not belong to any of the three accused. They soon identified this fourth person as Rudy Guede, a drifter, small-time drug dealer and harasser of girls, who had fled Perugia on the night of the murder. He was captured in Germany and brought back to Italy.

On the other hand, no DNA belonging to Knox or Sollecito was found anywhere in the room or on the body.

Suddenly, it appeared that the authorities might have made a terrible mistake, arresting three innocent people. They freed Lumumba (who had an airtight alibi) and concentrated on proving that Guede, Knox and Sollecito had committed the murder together. They already had Knox's quasi-confession. Now they needed hard evidence to back it up.

With Knox and Sollecito locked up, the police threw all their resources into retroactively gathering the evidence to prove them guilty. Many months and enormous sums of money were devoted to collecting this evidence, finding witnesses, and searching the crime scene again and again until they found what they needed. They never did find Knox's DNA anywhere at the crime scene, but almost six weeks later they did recover a bra clasp that they said had Sollecito's DNA on it. They found a knife in Sollecito's apartment which they said had Knox's DNA on the handle and Kercher's on the blade. And they found a mountain of other apparently damning evidence against Knox and Sollecito.

The prosecutors presented this mountain of evidence at the trial, which lasted almost a year. Knox's and Sollecito's lawyers patiently chipped away at it and, in the end, felt they had utterly demolished it - every pebble of it. Step by step, with sober, expert testimony and documentation, their lawyers sought to destroy the prosecution's case. Why was so little of this refutation reported in the press? The details were highly complex, involving matters of science, organic chemistry and forensic technique. It did not lend itself to soundbites and dramatic revelations. Nevertheless, in the end, the defence team believed they had successfully shown that no reliable evidence existed - absolutely none - that placed Knox or Sollecito at the scene of the crime.

Despite the defence's best efforts, the jury found the pair guilty. Why?

I posed this question to my most knowledgeable contact in Italy, a highly connected person who knows whereof he speaks. Here is his opinion: "This verdict had nothing to do with the actual evidence. It's all about la faccia, face. They had to convict her. Now, with the conviction, everyone has saved face, the judiciary, the prosecutors and police have been vindicated. There will be an appeal and she will be acquitted, and that will be done to satisfy the Americans. Then everybody will be happy. Of course, Amanda and Raffaele will be in prison for another two years, but that's a small matter compared to the careers of so many important people.

Kathyis12feethighandbites · 10/12/2009 10:48

interesting article DF.

Portofino · 10/12/2009 11:34

Very interesting!

dittany · 10/12/2009 15:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dittany · 10/12/2009 15:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DuelingFanjo · 10/12/2009 16:10

As I said - it's not on the guardian website yet. it is in the G2 bit of the paper (£1 from all good newsagents)

I wasn't sure if not putting it online was deliberate or just that they might not have it on there tomorrow. I know the prosecutor (Mignini) has a history of taking out legal proceedings against people - that's why I didn't put the journalist's name in. silly really!

I copied the article from a database I use at work which has most of the major newspapers of the Western world on it. I can't provide a link as it would ask you for a password and I doubt people here would have a password, hence me posting the whole thing so that people could read it rather than having to follow a link.

Anyway - the writer is Douglas Preston.

DuelingFanjo · 10/12/2009 16:11

until tomorrow.

dittany · 10/12/2009 16:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DuelingFanjo · 10/12/2009 16:22

And - just wanted to add that this journalist hasn't crawled out of the woodwork now. This event was reported in 2006 too.

Swipe left for the next trending thread