Article in the Telegraph about kids starting school and not being potty trained.

[wintera]

I read this in the paper this morning and thought it was an interesting article.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/primaryeducation/5956231/Pupils-start-school-still-in-nappies.html

@whomovedmychocolate

the PT method on the site is pretty close to the one i used

potty training isn't interesting. Mine isn't intersted in the potty at all. She is very interested in chocolate buttons though.

i don't know what you've t tried but....

• have child to yourself for 1/2 weeks (as little other stuff to do as possible)
• have a potty
• choccie B's/ dolly mix.

average PT day began: whip nappy off DD, feed her brekkers. Wait until she starts hopping from foot to foot/ standing on one leg - then place on potty. This gets very boring, so read stories, show Cbeebies (ideally on laptop so can angle screen so she can only see it sat on potty) whatever is necessary to keep that bum on the potty until she gives in and wees.

When she wees (even if it isonly a tiny drip) round of aplause and instant chocolate button - you did a wee-wee - hurray!. wipe bum/clear potty afterwards (as mines doesnt like fuss so felt this was a punishment of sorts..didn't want it to be too closely associated)
demonstrate myself - OOOOOh clever mummy did wee-wee on the potty, what a clever mmmy! (pointing to wee in potty so they can be certain what you are talking about) - give yourself a chocolate button) - after a week or so of this I could have weed into a test tube at ten paces!!
when they stand up off potty make a sad face - oh no , no wee-wee...mump.
no raction to accidents beyond a 'oh dear, let's clear this up' - though drop even this if they start turning it into a ritual.
you soon realise that there are times of day when they are goingto wee sooner or later. Then keep them on the poty - this can be difficult as you don't want to force them, but on the other hand they will probably be used to standing up to wee and reluctant sitting down.
to overcome this problem I gave her drinks of milk to have whilst sittin gon the potty - she was then willing to sit on it even when desperate. This enabled me to point at whatever insignicant little drip fell into the potty (swirl it around so they can see) and offer choccie B with 'well done baby, clever wee-wee) - imporant to wipe here though, otherwise the drip could have een from a previous wee and they won't know what you're rewarding them for.

In my desperation for her to positively associate the potty , i tried some things that didn't work - i got her rubber duck to 'wee' in the potty. Then when she was desperate, she picked up the duck and put it over the potty!! totally counter-productive.

things that helped were - getting the iplayer to show her favourite shows and 'the potty song' and 'once upon a potty' on You tube (I know the words by heart...It's not a hat, it's not for my cat, it's not a bird bath...) whilst she sat on the potty, if she stood up I stopped the video - instantly re-started when she sast back down.

it was very difficult to stay positive the first time i did this, and right up to day 7 i thought she wasn't getting it (she got it in the afternoon of the seventh day - i remember |DH saying 'we're getting nowhere' two hours before...) - then when there was regression (arg) this method produced results in a month. I think it took the full month (trainng all day every day) because it wasn't a time of my choosing, so there were interruptions, for jabs (which left her miserable) and a flying MIL visit, and diahorreah...all things which made it difficult. Also, she started out really confused about what was right, which she found upsetting.

that month was very hard indeed.

every day i counted the positives (she sat on the potty, she was happy..) and things i needed to change (got to be cheerful and positive, got to smile even when my back is hurting cos I've spent all day hunched over a potty....cherish the downtime at the end of the day when i read her a story whilst she's in her bedtime nappy..(and the Gin )) I wish i knew other kids in the area to show her how its done too....that would have helped.

But have a hug and comfort yourself - because i know how awful it is when they aren't getting it and you feel you're getting nowhere.

they will get it in the end, and what is more, when they grow up they won't remember all the hassle. You will though....

there is no evidence PT causes any kind of 'psychological damage' None at all!! Do you know any adult traumatised by it? some of those happy toilet-trained adults would have been very difficult potty-training kids.

My husband is perfectly continent now, after all! (more so than me whilst pg...)

MRZ, sorry for my last post, it seems rude when I saw it posted and that wasn't my intention. I am sure you are a very good teacher but it is upsetting to think that should my DC have problems in this area then they would be seen as responsible for preventing other children learning.

Washersaurus, can I please assure you you are not the only one in that situation. I have been attempting to toilet train ds since he was 2.5. He is now 7.5 and I finally feel like we have almost achieved it. I have had advice from nursery (he has been in full time day care since 2 years 8 months), health visitor and school nurse, all told me I was doing exactly the right things and carry on as I was. The doctor felt his stomach, told me there was no blockage and he felt it was just behavioural.
I have tried numerous positive approaches, various negative approaches, as well as ignoring it, getting him to clean his wet/soiled pants in the wash basin, getting him a book explaining why we do wees and poos, where they come from, he has had a bear in the big blue house book called 'When I Need To Go'. You name it, I have done it in one form or another. I didnt send him to school in pull-ups, he went in pants and was changed on a regular basis (sent in my own spares for him) during years R and 1. Year 2 his teacher denied he was having any accidents at school, despite him coming out smelling of stale urine on an almost daily basis. Since swapping school at Easter (almost another story entirely) he has had 3 school based accidents (one of which was on his school trip) and less home based accidents. He has also been assessed due to difficulties in the classroom and that came back as he is showing dyspraxic tendancies. I now feel that his lateness in getting toiletting (I would say it was end of Yr R before he showed any signs of 'getting' it) may have been due to the dyspraxia (and maybe his prematurity as well, he was a 32-weeker), and stress has been a large element of toiletting issues this year (I can now see a clear link between the majority of accidents he has and an incident he gets stressed with, normally either a major change in schedule/routine or an unexpected loud noise - this can even be an adult shouting when he isn't anticipating it).

However, I haven't known he has had difficulties up until recently, so I have treated him as NT, and have tried absolutely everything bar a referral to a paeds consultant. Should I have done? Hindsight gives perfect vision. DS doesn't show classic dyspraxic tendancies (speech and gross motor skills not badly affected, if at all), so I had no real clues but for everyone saying it's down to laziness, believe me it isn't.

Sorry, this has turned into a bit of an essay, guess it's a subject close to my heart .

Washersaurus, if you want a chat, you can CAT me, or email me Ccoke978 AT aol DOT com (obviously, change caps to symbols and remove spaces)

WMMC dd was similar, wanted to wear knickers from 22 months, got it to begin with then had more and more accidents (wee only here though thankfully!). I think she was just lazy or couldn't be bothered tbh and being wet didn't bother her at all. I stopped rewarding per wee and started rewarding for a full dry day. After a couple of weeks of getting a book at the end of the day if she hadn't wet herself she got it-it was like something just clicked. She does have the odd not getting to the loo in time accident but hasn't done a full wee in her pants for months now. Hang in there!

oneopinionatedmother - thanks for this - we have tried this - in fact she will wee and poo on command if you put her on the loo. But she isn't at all perturbed about weeing on the carpet or pooing on the swing!

And quite delighted about weeing on the princess pants.

Part of me thinks she's worked out this gets my goat and is doing it to get attention and despite the fact I try not to react in front of her, there is a certain involuntary rolling of eyes and muttered curses as I walk out the room to get yet another cloth to clean up.

soz whomoveychocolate long post..

LRB - thank you, it is reassuring (I think) to know that someone else has been in the same position. It is a very lonely place to be when everyone else's 4yo's have been TT since 2.5yo...and the pressure from relatives...OMG!

What support is there if it is a behavioural, rather than medical issue? I really don't want to traumatise him with medical tests (as offered by doctor) which may make matters even worse.

I sought help from doc's/HV kind of hoping there would be some sort of behavioural expert somewhere who could help us. It is doing nothing for DS1's self esteem (never mind mine) that is sure!

Its the daily mail FGS

Doctor just told me star charts... like I hadn't already used them several times!!!!

Luckily for me (I think) I split from xp when ds was 2yrs 8 months (hence the full time nursery) and have had little input from him or his family since, so only had my immediate family, and had a lot of support from my mum. His dad does use it as something to use against me, but I just ignore him now.

Try your HV again, try the school nurse once he goes to school (if you can get a number for them - ds's yr r teacher gave it me), maybe see if you can get a referral from your GP onwards to a consultant. Or do what I have and slogged it out, hopefully with a supportive yr r teacher/school. A referral may flag up an underlying condition, like I say, it has taken until the last fortnight of term, when ds was assessed due to problems in the classroom, that it has been flagged up that he has dyspraxic tendancies (not a dx as only a learning support assessment). Maybe a referral to a peads cons would have flagged it up sooner, I dunno.

I would guess if your ds is aware and unhappy about it, he is further on than mine was, cos even at 5 he would happily sit in wet/dirty underwear for several hours if it wasn't 'noticed' (how it could be unnoticed is beyond me, but still). Soiling we managed to mostly sort about 18 months-2 years ago, but it is only since Easter (once the wet accidents dropped drastically) that he seems to notice when he is wet, and not wanting to stay in his underwear. In fact we have had almost 4 weeks of constant dry pants (bar one accident yesterday morning) and he is saying how nice it is in dry pants and how wet pants feel yucky. A real breakthrough, me thinks.

Again, if you want to chat, or even a moan cos you are having a bad day/week of it, feel free to CAT/email me. I may not be able to help much, but I know how lonely it is being the only one who seems to have these issues (school nurse told me it wasn't uncommon in yr r, sure felt it) and am quite happy to be a shoulder if you need it.

By wahwah on Mon 03-Aug-09 21:06:59
You're in the wrong job if you feel that way, because it is a requirement of the job. Doesn't matter how any of us feel about it, the DCSF recognise it needs to be done.

wahwah there is nowhere in my job description that says I should change wet & soiled children I do it because I don't want the child to suffer not because it is required by my job.
The DCSF does not say that teachers should be responsible for changing children.

Two children in our last reception intake were not toilet trained (no special needs), I agreed that I would be responsible for attending to their changes as nobody else was prepared to. The last half term was a nightmare as one of the little boys started wearing pants as his mother decided to give potty training another go, I lost count of the amount of time that I spent cleaning him up, he really shows no interest in being clean at all. His family are at the end of their tether but I didn't really sign up to this either.

Two children in our last reception intake were not toilet trained (no special needs), I agreed that I would be responsible for attending to their changes as nobody else was prepared to. The last half term was a nightmare as one of the little boys started wearing pants as his mother decided to give potty training another go, I lost count of the amount of time that I spent cleaning him up, he really shows no interest in being clean at all. His family are at the end of their tether but I didn't really sign up to this either.

My ds2. is 6 he has alot of stomach problems and is under the hospital. Up until a few months ago he would regular soil himself. He is doing really well at the moment and only has the occassional accident. I did all the normal toilet training and he has not been in nappies for years. Despite him having accidents I wouldnt of dreamt of sending him to school in a nappy. Its difficult when people assume its lazy parenting when it clearly is not in some cases as in ds2

whomovedmychocolate - that's it exactly! Ds is quite comfy with the potty and toilet on the whole (prefers potty at home and toilet when out) and enjoys a reward when we 'catch' a wee or poo. BUT he's equally happy weeing/pooing ANYWHERE, be it pants, pullups, floor, car, etc. . There's nothing he wants enough to change his behaviour and I really don't want to go down the negative route ('oh dear, I though that you wanted to be a big boy') as my mum used this for all sorts of things and it made me quite unhappy as a child.

I'm hoping that it'll click as he's still only 2.8 but a part of me knows that his personality is such that I may well still be here next summer and that depresses me hugely.

Mrz

"there is nowhere in my job description that says I should change wet & soiled children"

I know you do it anyway and I don't intend this as a personal attack on you... you are obviously a dedicated teacher ...but ...

I think the fact that this is not included in the job description is the crux of the problem.

I'm sorry - I have read your posts and found them really informative and I've tried to understand your position and that of your union - I also appreciate your job is far from easy and that resources available are woefully inadequate.

But I personally think - and surely common sense dictates - that the physical ease and comfort of a primary school child (particularly ages 4, 5, 6) should be paramount (and surely necessary?) before any teaching is done and any learning accomplished.

The comparison here is of a hospital orderly or a junior nurse who doesn't plump up the pillows of elderly patients or moisten their lips because "it is not in the job description".

If compassion for a child and basic practicality are not part of the teaching curriculum then sorry - it should be!! It should be central to it.

And surely part of the holistic, integrated approach to teaching that prevails today.

Or is it just the unpleasant bits that are left out??

Maybe the teachers & TAs are protecting themselves as much as anything else, which seems reasonable. Aren't there a lot of schools where policy forbids them even from cuddling the kids in order to avoid accusations of abuse etc? Nappy changing is something far more intimate.

funtimewincies - we should compare notes!

If you want a potty training buddy, I'm up for it - I'll have to potty train DS next year so I could do with picking someone's brain on boy training as opposed to girl training.
You are not CATable but I am if you want to get in touch

I'm not sure that the issue is whether ot not the teacher is willing/happy/annoyed it's not in the job description to change nappies or pants, it's more to do with the needs of one or two children over-riding the majority (SN a seperate issue).

Very few KS1 classrooms have a full-time TA. So...
1)What happens to all the other children if the teacher has to leave the room (needing 2 people for child protection aside)?
2)If a TA has to be called from another class then those other children are losing out on their limited TA time. If it keeps happening (say 2 accidents a day) then it impacts across the school.
3)Even in a school Nursery/Foundation where there are 2 fulltime staff the children will need to be left unsupervised while the 2 adults (for the child's protection) help to clean the child up.

rasputin the rights and wrongs of four year olds being in school aside the facts are that children this age were starting school in my area and many others 10+ years ago not in nappies and toilet trained. I personally can't remember a child attending our nursery at the age of 3 in nappies whereas now we are seeing many 3 year olds in pullups/nappies and an increasing number of 4 and 5 year olds and even some 6 year olds relay that they wear pullups at home (why if they can stay clean and dry all day at school?)
So we need to ask ourselves are children developing more slowly than they were 10 years ago or are there other factors causing schools to see an increase in children who aren't toilet trained?

Thanks whomovedmychocolate . I'll have another bash after my brother's wedding in September. I can't decide whether he's ready and has just decided that he's in charge or whether he genuinely can't tell. The downside of 'don't make them feel like accidents are dirty' I suppose. I can safely say my ds doesn't think that !

The LEA are refusing to statutory assess either of my boys. Both have ASD and we really struggled to get the eldest toilet trained before school but the school pressured us to get him continent. He was still having accidents the first term but they refused to clean him up and called me in every time. Not wildly practical when I was at paeds appointments with DS2 but they firstly refused to change nappies and secondly refused to deal with accidents which occurred as a result of trying to force continence on a child that was not ready.

DS2 starts in September. Not only does he have ASD but he has a problem with his privates, an operation was done in December but it will take up to 2 years to sort itself out. He WILL be going in September in nappies, there is nothing I can do about it for physical and mental reasons. I still have no idea what his personal care plan is. I won't be going in as I need to take DD to paeds appointments etc. The support agencies have told the school that this is not a case of us being lazy it is his needs but the school are being very stubborn about allocating people for his personal care.

So no he doesn't have his own TA as the LEA won't statement him (I'm now taking the LEA to court).

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