Article in the Telegraph about kids starting school and not being potty trained.

[wintera]

I read this in the paper this morning and thought it was an interesting article.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/primaryeducation/5956231/Pupils-start-school-still-in-nappies.html

No, mrz, but as a teacher if there is a concern about less than perfect aprenting that affects development it is your role to pass that onto an agency who can investigate.

Of course teachers can't take on continence. That woulld be ridiculous, but I do see it as an aspect of wider parenting that needs considering in a CP way. Much as if a child turned up with no shoes each day it's in no way a teachers role to provide shoes, but it would be to request the teacher with responsibility for CP to consider what it might mean.

However I am eitehr not making myself at all clear today after a few weeks off or you're misreading everything I type so i think I should go off and do something else. I know what I mean regardless.

It takes even longer to get a referral for SS support than it does to get a SEN statement IME
and I fully agree there is no joined up thinking. I was told by the family support worker in our local CC I shouldn't be advising parents to seek help and that I'm not qualified in matters of child development ... luckily the child's paediatrician agreed with me or the child would still be waiting.

happywomble - that's a really good point. It's not like you're changing a newborn at that stage is it? It's not an every 5 min job. Assuming there was no soiling going on could possibly just be one quick change by the parents before school, one at lunch time by either a parent popping in or member of staff, and then another when they got home. Not a huge deal surely.

Yep SS have big issues (I had a letter today saying that we're being placed on a waiting list for a disability SW and that's with 2 asd kids, one so aggressive he's seen by a specialist psychop[athy team- or would be if they answered their referrals PMSL!)

Which is I think where charities such as the one I workedfor could help, but of course we picked up so much slack from SS that we had wait lists too- though obv the parenting support helped that as we could make it available to all who needed it. Much better.
Or at least, something to offer.

PeachyTheRiverParrettHarlot now you are the one living in a well ordered world.
CP referral is still like walking through treacle even with CAF and multi agency cooperation [excuse me while I scream] having spent two days of my holidays making phone calls.

mummyfuss it can be an every 5 minute soiling job (not just wet but smeared everywhere and I mean everywhere) I've taught 5 year old children who are soiling 5, 6 or more times a day.

It's being discussed on radio 2 at the moment
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00lxf86

You're right of course about CAF, still needs doing though. SS is in freefall and I can't see how they can escape that.

There needs to be some kind of intervention system that picks up cases early on- a sort of Triage system to ID which cases need further investigation and which can be addressed in other way.

Won't happen though.

Mrz - these children soiling 5 times a day must have medical problems surely? How awful for you having to clean that up.

no happywomble the child had no medical problems simply a case as PeachyTheRiverParrettHarlot says for CP

The argument about children not being ready is valid though surely? I tried with my DD when she was about 2.5, she got really distressed and refused to sit on the potty so I left it a few months and didn't force it. She gradually started sitting o the potty and now, within a week has decided not to wear nappies and so far only once has wet herself. I could have forced the issues a few months back, causing her distress and lots of accidents but the end result would have probably been the same. Whats the big deal? So whether children are ready or not is a factor, some are before two, others much later.

Incidentally DD has various other medical issues which could have caused problems with potty training and I was shocked when I was told she wouldn't be able to attend one of the local pre schools if she wasn't trained. In actual fact she would have been but I haven't sent her there, I do feel it was discrimination, she has had two ops and countless medical procedures, no way was I forcing her to do something else against her will especially as it was possible that she wasn't physically able anyway (and they knew this).

That is awful MRZ and you clearly should not have to deal with it. I can understand that what you are dealing with is highly disruptive.

Can I just stress that lots of families want to send their children into school settings from three, not five? The child may well be within normal boundaries (according to my DD's consultant) for training and unable to get extra support and yet the schools are refusing them entry.

I was lucky enough to find a school which dealt wonderfully with my DD, but what if I lived in an area with just one school which would not accept her?

Riven I do feel the DDA used to excuse children who have no medical/physical reasons for incontinence is at the expense of SEN children.

My DS started school in the nursery (year before reception) and he used to wee himself like the flood gates had burst open. He did this often. He was three. We tried and tried and tried to convince him not to do this. I tried. Dh tried. Nanny tried. Nursery teacher tried. But he was three. Surely this is normal for a 3 year old. Now he's 4, nursery has ended and he starts reception in September. He's all better. Rarely if ever pees himself now.

His sister is 6. She wets herself all the time. I mean several times a day. It turns out after many many unpleasant conversations of telling her she is too old for this that she has a recurring UTI (urinary tract infection). She swears she doesn't know she has to pee.

I think if we want to make education compulsory at age 5, then we need to be prepared to clean up so pee and poo. Unless, of course, we are saying that a 3/4/5 year who is wetting themself is not normal. And that is the case then NHS needs to revise some guidelines. But, surely you can't have the school refusing entry while at the same time the NHS is saying there is no cause for concern.

I'm in the cloth nappies help children train earlier camp, my two NT (or thereabouts) boys trained just before they turned two (with very few accidents) and only needed night nappies for a few weeks, even DS2 who has SN was trained by threeish. However, they all seem to have large bladders, I was at home with them all day at the time, it was the summer and they will do anything to earn a chocolate button.
Potty training is a challenge but its not that bad is it? Have we all become a bit soft these days?
Sorry if this sounds at all boastful but potty training is one of the very few things my boys have been better than average at (the list of things they have struggled with is getting long).

Athene- you've hit the nail on the head - it was normal for your three year old to have accidents; it was NOT normal for your 6 year old to have accidents because she had a medical problem.

I don't think it is normal for school aged (5 years)children to regularly have accidents, as your example has shown.

Riven - if you have a child with SN I thought you would have a bit more sympathy with people whose children will not use the loo until just over 3 rather than having a go. Years ago children didn't go to nursery at 2 1/2 so it was probably noticed less whether they were toilet trained or not. There is probably some truth in the theory that children are not getting the sensation of weeing with modern disposables too and it takes some longer to train.

I tried very hard with both DCS to potty train them before 3 to no avail. At 3 1/4 they were ready and went from nappies to no accidents at all. Neither of them liked the potty and both went straight to using the loo.

I can't believe you are blaming my children for the fact your child doesn't get free nappies! I was paying full price for my nappies and wouldn't have wanted my children in them a day longer than necessary.

Some children do not have special needs but still find learning to wee on the potty/loo a difficult process when they are 2. A little more understanding of other peoples situations would not go amiss.

It is a bit of a challenge if your child responds well but what if they refuse to sit on the toilet or potty and scream as if terrified? My DD had had surgery in that area so I was perhaps "softer" than others may have been but even if I wasn't, what would have been the point?

I couldn't physcally force her to sit on the potty and she would just lie on the floor in her room crying pointing to the nappies.

A few months down the line and she practically trained herself. There must be lots of children in similar positions, I asked her psychologist for advice and she told me leave her she's not ready! She acted like I was a bit mad for being worried so there are mixed messages out there.

But guidelines don't say to treat a 5 or 6 year old who is wetting herself. She has only been treated at my insistance. More passive mums than me would have been fobbed off by the GP and sent home. And then the school would refuse them entry. (incidentally our school has never suggested entry would be refused).

So, the NHS and schools obviously need to coordinate their policies.

We didn't get much attention for DD until I stomped my feet and said "She is 6, and I am dosing her up on painkillers and sending her to school. She wakes up crying in pain in the middle of the night. And she needs a break" I went on a bit and I finally got some long term antibiotic. The guidelines say not go down this road. She finished the antibiotic, infection returned. I now the the pediatricians attention and she is suggesting the antibiotics. But, DD has gone through almost a year of infections to get to this point.

Do you want to know what the school wanted me to do? Take to a social worker to talk about her "wiggling" in the chair... which myseteriously goes away every time the infection goes away. I'm thinking it burns/itches down there so she rubs it on the corner of the chair.

I do think the schools need a full time nurse/doctor someone who can identify these things for what they really are.

My point is that the NHS says one thing and the schools say another. They need to come together as a single voice.

I think it's appalling to be frank.

I am not talking about SEN children or being dry at night but the children who have no reason not to be dry in the day what so ever other than lazy clean freak parents. I know soooooo many parents that put it off because they don't want the mess and think at 31/2 they'll miraculously be dry without making mess along the way. They find they still wee on the floor so bleat they're not ready and put them in pull ups. I know a lot of kids who are dry with the childminder and put back in nappies the minute they get home. Potty training is messy, except it. Children need to experience wet pants to become dry,shoving pullups on at the slightest hint of moisture is just lazy.

I trained all 3 of mine (2 of which are twins) at 27months,we had a week of mess each time,loads of Dettol but it was job done. Aside from anything else I think it's cruel to not persevere until it's sorted . I'm fully aware that kids range to when it's exactly cracked but how degrading for a child at school to be in nappies unnecessarily, surely they'd be teased. Personally I couldn't care less when it's done but it needs to be done before school,that should be a deadline all parents work towards. To just sit back and leave it to school is selfish in the extreme.

My niece has a serious bowl condition and it was touch
and go that she'd be dry/ clean ready for school but she still managed to crack it so there really is no excuse for the vast majority of kids.

I'm with Riven re the free nappies,my niece couldn't have free ones and it cost a fortune. As a parent with 2 just leaving rec and 1 just starting I'd be furious if I found valuable teaching time(from the assistant or the teacher) was being used up to change nappies.

Milamae - I understand and agree with much of what you are saying, but I think you are putting it in a rather harsh manner.

I don't think parents are selfish,I think parents are genuinely afraid of causing their child distress and emotional problems by potty training, and they genuinely don't realise that accidents are a normal part of potty training and can be dealt with by normal cleaning practises. Just like it is normal for a child to fall down when learning to walk it is normal for a child to have accidents when potty training - this is how they understand what their bladder capacity is. I think you would have to be a particularly ignorant/cruel parent to cause your child distress by something such as potty training - which is just another developmental stage.

It's interesting that a couple of posters on here have said that they tried to potty train at the age of 2 and a half and they found that their child was not ready in their opinion. From a geographical and historical perspective the age of two and a half is actually quite late to start potty training, and I wonder if they would have had more success with potty training if they had started a few months earlier, rather then later.

I also don't think that parents necessarily know when their child is ready for potty training - contrary to what another poster said, I don't think parents always know exactly what is best for their child. My dd1 was potty trained by her creche and I didn't know that until she picked up the new potty at home and used it - I hadn't known she was ready for potty training at all.

Sorry if I sound harsh but no parent likes causing their child distress and all children will get distressed the 1st few times they wet their pants.

I think it is selfish to just think oh well school will sort it. Other mums can cause their dc distress and my child will have allowances made for them.

If we all just decided to throw our hands in the air and say they're not ready and all kids turned up in nappies it would be impossible for a normal rec class to function.

Hmm. That would be one way of getting them to raise the formal education age I suppose...