Please uncover your face-Matthew Parrish

[mrsruffallo]

Interesting article here
I have noticed that there are more women covering up in the last few years.
Any opinions?

Nancy, what are you on about piercings and hoodies are chosen by teenagers who grow out of it eventually? How very offensive. And more to the point, incorrect!

i think it's touchingly naive of you to believe that these women who have been raised from birth to understand that the man is in charge and they are under his command - are making an informed and 'free' choice as to how to dress.

of course not showing your face makes you feel less human. it is how we communicate, how we show emotion, how we interact as a species.

Wasting - that's not what i said.

You said 'those are fashion statements chosing by teenagers who eventually grow out of them'

Riven - I wanted to respond positively to something that you (and now I see others) said much earlier this morning but before I did I wanted to ask a few questions so that I do not inadvertently offend anyone:

1. Why do Muslim men not generally cover their faces (but dress modestly) yet some Muslim women do cover their faces to feel or be regarded as modest?

1. Is modesty in the Muslim world defined as - the strict avoidance of appearing or being sexually atrractive to the opposite sex - or is it more loosely or differently defined in different part of the Muslim world?

1. Is a Muslim woman covering her face simply adopting a more strict form of modesty compared to say her Muslim sister who say just wears a headscarf?

I would be very interesred of knowing how many muslim women you know Nancy66, and I do not mean how many you have seen in your life but how many you have actually talked to long enough to have any idea what their couple life is like.

Why is suggesting that teenagers will eventually modify their style of dress offensive?

Gerionine - quite a few during the course of my work.

Nancy - I found your comment on the "dehumanising" aspect fascinating.

I think many, not all, but many of the women choosing to adopt facial and bodily covering are a younger generation, politicised within a certain contemporary political discourse. As another poster has pointed out, there is a definite generational and rebellious element to the decision.

It's a visible statement, clearly so in a liberal country such as Britain.

Part of the "message" it conveys is precisely that of a question-mark raised against dominant, capitalist, predominantly Western ideas of what constitutes "humanised" and particularly "humanised female".

I do think that the decision to take the veil, and so on, can be subject to a critique, even criticism. But only if you have initially taken on board the position that the decision stands for. And thus some of the critique of those mainstream Western values that are implied by the decision.

Much of that critique is very, very similar to the decisions of Western feminists who were/are outraged by the emphasis on a commercially, even patriarchally defined notion of what a woman must do/look like in order to count as a female human.

We have many threads on here about how much pressure our children come under to meet that standard and how very unpleasant it is for us as parents to resist that. And, I suppose we have many strategies for resisting/living with that pressure.

So I do think that, although you, and others, may indeed return to your position that the veil is dehumanising, you, and others need to circuit through your own criticisms of contemporary, mainstream culture, in order to richly inform that position.

And they were all oppressed, subservant to their DH no doubt!

Reality never mentioned teenagers, so I imagine you assumed that those styles of dress are only chosen by teenagers and are not suitable for those with a mature attitude.

agreeing with gorioline, in houses where extended famiies live together men are usually outnumbered by women and what men manage to oppress a house full of mum/ grandmum/ sisters/ aunts etc...

haha would brave or foolish man who tried!

Impressive post Cherryblossom! It summaries a lot of my thoughts that I would not have been able to write about in a such concise and clear way!

Wasting - not sure what your point is? Reality asked why not ban hoodies if we are also going to ban veils and I said that some places have banned hoodies. I also pointed out that the styles she mentioned are mostly teenage choices. yes, i accept that you do get the odd 40 year old man in a hoodie and on a skateboard. happy?

Gorionine - We are talking about women who wear the veil or burka here and , yes, I have found that they do tend to be following instruction and expectation.

cherry - yes I think you're right in that a great number of disaffected young generation muslims are wearing the veil. I've noticed the number increased after 911, I'm sure a huge part of this is a 'two fingers up to the west' and just normal, teenage rebellion. Hopefully they will grow out of it and ditch it.

But when I see a muslim woman walking along looking like a black ghost, alongside her husband in his designer jeans, trainers and Abercrombie T-shirt it makes me despair.

Nancy, the veil, niqab,burka is only worn outside, just like you would wear a coat should you wish to. Muslim women also wear designer clothes, they just decide to not show them to you!

I wear a coat when it's cold and not all year round.

I don't wear a coat because I think that men are incapable of controlling their sexual urges if i don't.

Canute I think you've been awfully belligerent yourself to be honest. What would I have veil wearers do? Well actually when I made the first point I was talking about you, because of your quite strong belligerence and tendency to see things in black and white (from your posts). So I would have you understand and attempt to accept that many people find it very discomfiting indeed without going on the attack. And that goes for everyone, both sides really.

I don't agree with banning the burkha, I said that first of all. I am in fact offended by it, but I don't like that reaction in myself, I think it comes out of fear, and not knowing the whole story.

But I stick to the point -- what is expected of me in other cultures should be expected here, out of respect. I'm not really talking about countries and nationalities, I'm talking about cultures and respect and understanding. I should be able to say to someone, I feel really uncomfortable talking to you in a veil, and expect an understanding response, not an accusation of racism and intolerance.

It is so important to try to look for this understanding, I'm sure you've travelled and I'm sure you agree with me on that point. It's horrid to see people trampling over traditions abroad without a care, but most people try not to upset.

see the us and them again, a lot of women won't wear sleeveless clothing because they hate their upper arms or wouldn't leave the house without grabbing a cardi or something to hide their boobs or bum

it's normal for women to dress in a way they feel's appropriate for whatever their reasons. my grandma feels under dressed without a hat and my sil's and friends wouldn't think of leaving the house without an abaya and hijab, don't know the common name for them over here

I am sorry you have found me that way Stuffit, I do tend to treat like for like. It may well be a failing of mine. My response re; what would you have them do was a genuine q and not at all beligerent or at least not intended to be. I suppose you have not felt the change in attitude to meet your attitude, simply because of the written word and lack of tone but it has actually been there.

I was interested to learn that Turkey - a muslim country - has banned all head covering in public places.

My point Nancy, was that that post displayed arrogance and discrimination against people who dress differently to you.
Those who have piercings will grow out of it.
Those who wear niqab are oppressed.

So only people who dress like you are mature and civilised?

I seriously couldn't give a fuck what anyone chooses to pierce. you've seized on something incredibly petty and irrelevant and turned it into a huge issue - i never mentioned piercings somebody else did. I don't and wouldn't compare them to a burka.

yes i believe that the veil/burka represents oppression.

You see, Turkey (as Tunisia) in fact is denying women the right to work if they wear a head scarf, now THAT is opression!

sorry, posted to quick. It is opression for two reasons, the ones who have chosen to wear it are denied the right to work. The ones that might have been pressurised to wear a headscarf see all hope of going out at all taken away from them.

Canute it is hard to have two conversations at once I agree: one of them pointed than the other possibly!

I did not intend to offend you stuffit, although I accept I may well have, I just get so cross at people who have such blinkered attitudes. It is difficult to turn it off and on enough to make sure the other peerson can see it is not aimed at them.

Gorionine, as I said. Opression is the act of preventing a person or people from making free choices. That would include telling what they cannot wear, just as much as telling them what they must wear.