Please uncover your face-Matthew Parrish

[mrsruffallo]

Interesting article here
I have noticed that there are more women covering up in the last few years.
Any opinions?

I think that is a matter of opinon Nancy.

I don't know, I think the onus is equally upon veil-wearers to make a big effort to understand.

For example, I have to try very hard to understand the culture I live in and it's a responsibility I take seriously. I don't understand it, I don't like various things about it, but I read the papers, I read the opinion formers here, I ask the people here how things work and what is expected.

The onus is upon me to do that, because I am not of the prevailing culture, and I'm (as most of us would be) keen to do the right thing and not offend.

wearing the veil is usually the personal choice of the wearer, i know muslim mums who have been very upset that their daughters have chosen to wear it but have accepted it's a recognised symbol of devoutism that's becoming more popular amongst young women. there's a whole variety of reasons why women feel the need to make such a dramatic statement.

i've also known women (when i lived in kuwait) who have to wear the veil as it's expected of their family but on holidays their dh or dad has been fine about them not wearing it once they arrived in uk. similarly i've seen men change in the loo on the plane out of dishdasha and headress into shorts and vest.

there is also the cultural aspect, that headscarfs and 'ababyas' (the cover all outer garment often black) is normal dress in many countries and why should a woman have to abandon her normal dress if she visits or comes to live in uk?

my only consideration against face veils is they shouldn't be worn in banks, airports etc the same as balaclavas and crash helmets. wearing a veil is fine but i think the safety of public buildings shouldn't be compromised anyone's religious beliefs

i also worked at a school once where a long line of completely covered women would wait outside for their kids, amazingly their kids always made a beeline for the correct mum.

i hate the argument that modest dress somehow makes the wearers superior and that flesh flashing westerners cause all women to be looked at as sexually available, plenty of women are raped and abused in islamic countries too or here in the uk. sexual and domestic violence is about the perpetrator's issues

Stuffit, what would you have wearers do? They may well all understand why some people object or are uncomfortable with it but that won't change anything. The people who wear a veil have the right to choose to do that, the people who do not like it have a right to dislike it, however they do not have the right to ban it.

Understanding can only take you so far, there also has to be a willingness to live with differences.

I don't think anyone has presented that argument have they mamamila? The fact is though that the same arguments can be used for both sides, some westerners feel uncomfortable about a veil, some children stare etc etc but the same could be said the other way around, a westerner womans choice of clothing can (and does) make people just as uncomfortable/children stare just as much.

What is good for the goose, if you want to say that veils should be banned because they make a few people uncomfortable then surely they should be able to ban western women from wearing mini skirts?

Or does this argument really come down to "this is our country so they should do what makes us most happy"?

king- riven actually said something to that effect

and you cannot walk around in a mini skirt or shorts in middle eastern countries. in iran you'll be handed a tissue at the airport to wipe off bright lipstick

We are not talking about what you can do in middle eastern countries though, we are talking about what we can do here, in this country.

We can walk around in a mini skirt and we can walk around in a veil, both are acceptable forms of personal choice, in this country, and long may they remain that way.

in many muslim countries you'll be arrested if seen to out anything in your mouth during daylight hours in ramadhan month

i think the problem in the uk is that somewhere along the line it was decided this is a 'multicultural society' and no-one really knows what this means. if everything is fine and acceptable if it has a cultural basis then how can people express their concerns for things they disagree with without being jumped on as racist or intolerant

i take taxis a lot around leeds and talk to normal middle aged pakistani drivers usually who are bewildered too by the way the society is going. guys who came to uk in the 70's and worked hard to integrate and give their families a good life shake their heads at the same problems that many white brits do too. worse for them their own kids are a target group for religious extremists when their parents want them to be working hard for gcse's and a levels and not having their heads filled with propaganda and nonsense.

bonneville, i would rather see a little girl dressed up in a cotton headscarf, and long sleeved loose cotton clothes in this weather, than see her wearing a strappy dress, whilst slathered with nasty chemicals......

the women i know who wear a face veil, do so because they choose to do so. it isincredibly empowering to do so.. if i had the guts, i would wear one. but, unfortunatley , i am too much a victim of the media on how a woman should look. (thin, skinny, sexy, etc)

the nasty louts who attacked one posters sisters. please dont bundle all muslim men with them. if those louts knew the first thing about their religion, then they would caste their eyes down, and be respectful. instead, they are nasty things that have crawled out of the gutters, pretending to be humans. i hope your sister didnt come to any long term harm because of them.

So, if the veil is not a religious requirement, why the posts saying it is about religion and that's why people wear it?

Doesn't make sense.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make about ramadhan in muslim countries. As I sadi, we are discussing this country.

I agree that some people are a bit confused about what multi-cutural means but I am fairly clear myself that "integrating" can be done - and done well, without giving up your own cultural identity.

Asking any one group of people to stop doing something because it makes another group "uncomfortable" is laughable. By all means ask a group of people not to do things that put people in danger or infringe on another groups personal rights but telling someone what they can wear on their head?

Edam, perhaps it is one thing to some people and another thing to other people? A lot of things in life have more than one meaning or function.

Stitch, that was my sister, and I pointed out in the same post that of course it doesn't mean all/most/many Muslim men are like that.

Actually I think the dog coming to the rescue and scaring the thug shitless was quite empowering for my sister!

But my mother and sister were jolly keen to move out of that area. Not friendly to girls and women at all.

The koran does not say anywhere that a woman has to cover her face - so it the Islamic faith is based on the koran and many believe that the Koran are the words of Allah himself, why do they do it?

i'm not really trying to make 'a point'

it just seems people are constantly confused by what should or shouldn't be acceptable in uk and these sort of threads always go the same way

at the beginning of the thread people there was the whole question of are women forced to wear veils by male oppresors etc

i wanted to point out this definitely wasn't the case for many young women who dismay their own parents by wearing the veil.

and it's the us and them divide i can never understand. like i say i find the same bewilderment shared by pakistani taxi drivers and my white olde english village dwelling grandparents on many issues

If anyone wants to read a really good short story about the multi-determined "meaning" of the decision to wear the veil/nikab/burka etc., could I recommend a short story in the collection "Sandpiper" by Ahdaf Soueif?

Can't remember name of story but the whole collection is very good and that particular short story I remember being really engaged by.

It examines it as a political decision, indeed with elements of protest against Western foreign policy but also as a subtle exploration of a feminist/female identity too. And Soueif also problematises that decision. So she's interesting in that she explores rather than presents with any final decision.

Nancy, why not?

Mamamila, I think the divide is created by things like the attitudes displayed on this thread and articles like the link, ill-informed and intolerant beligerence. Never good for race/culture/religon/personal choice realtions.

because it de-humanises you that's why not.

edam - i saw exactly the same problem in balsall heath/ moseley area of birmingham when i lived there long ago. it's mob mentality giving obnoxious men an excuse for their odious behaviour. there was a local muslim vigilante action group against the street prostitution and kerb crawlers etc which was appreciated by most residents non-muslims included but it spilled over into lots of intimidation of women and girls who lived in the local area and where deemed to be dressed inappropriately

In your opinion Nancy, people freely choosing something cannot be described as dehumanised and, in any case, I find it a bit of a stretch to say that not showing your face makes you or makes you appear less than human.