Please uncover your face-Matthew Parrish

[mrsruffallo]

Interesting article here
I have noticed that there are more women covering up in the last few years.
Any opinions?

Nancy, you may not care what other people pierce, but I felt like you were belittling people who wear a hoodie, a piercing, or pink hair dye, by suggesting that they would grow out if it.
Seemed symptomatic of your attitude to an another group who dress differently.

I happen to think that high heels represent oppression of women, but I wouldn't ban people from wearing them if they so choose.
If a woman's husband forced her to wear them against her will I certainly would have a problem.
You seem to be saying that the choice to wear a burka or niqab should be taken away from women, which is oppression and very patronising.

I'm with Matthew Parris. I argued the same on a thread on here a while back after Jack Straw drew similar conclusions and was rounded on somewhat.

I feel it's the over tolerance of other cultures to the detriment of out own which leaves us open to anger and extremism and makes desperate people, who feel they have no other say, vote BNP.

We need to be honest and reasonable, welcoming but also proud and confident enough of our culture in order to make this whole issue healthier and less dysfunctional.

Turkey's stance on the veil is very interesting because it is a secular country politically with an overwhelmingly Muslim population. Wasn't the veil banned by Ataturk?

As for opposition to the veil being an act of oppression, really? So was that nude hitchhiker being oppressed when he was taken to court? And how many of you were on the talk boards protesting in his favour?

Just because A = oppression doesn't mean the converse of A also = oppression.

I wish Islam had developed somewhere other than the Arab parts of the world, then maybe we wouldn't have all this nonsense.

As previously stated I do not accept the premise that the majority of women who wear a veil or burka are doing so of their own free will.

As for high heels, tattoos, mini skirts or anything else - people's fashion statements are none of my business. But at least they have made these choices and not had them imposed upon them. They also have the freedom to reject those choices at a later date and embrace another style.

You can't compare islamic face covering with fashion attire

My girls are really young, they have worn headscarbes when we go out, not because I want them to, but because they have insisted upon it!

I'd rather let them get on with it than battle with a 4year old and a 6 year old (it would last all day).
They've also worn pyjamas to tescos, fairy princess slippers, once my eldest decided nothing but a big wooly jumper would do on a riiillllyy hot sunny day etc.... I'm clearly amongst the dreadful 'mozlem' mothers forcing her children to cover up

I've never understood the hysteria over womens clothing, I actually agree with Moony on this one, ignore it if it annoys you, if we're doing it for attention or to piss you off, we'll find another way if you don't react to this one I'm sure!

And I know three Muslims sisters who cover up, one holds down a professional job, the other two volunteer for charities, and all three are excellent upstanding british citizens, who speak perfect english, wear the most amazing clothes beneath their abayas, and are active in their local communities, forever participating and actively organising activities to promote cohesion between local communities.

Me I don't wear the face veil, I do wear the headscarf, and I wear pyjamas under my abaya to do the school run, because at 6am dammit I don't have the time, energy, or the organisation to turn out pristine, fed kids and packed lunches, and be immaculately turned out myself (god I envy the young mums who can do that) it's me or the kids at that time in the morning!

Great post, Spidermama.

Reality, all those other things might be intimidating to some, but we haven't evolved large parts of the brain specifically to deal with things that are prevented by someone with piercings. Being able to see someone's face is pretty darn important to human beings, otherwise Mother Nature wouldn't have spent thousands of years developing our ability to read faces.

fuzzy - the school run argument is the only one that ever makes me think there might be SOME advantage in the abaya.

Nancy, the thing is if these women are being forced to wear face veils agaisnt their wills, surely they would slip them off once they were out of sight of their husbands/jailers/mothers/whoever ti is who appears to be forcing these vast swathes of young women desperate to get nekkid cover up!

I wear what the heck I want, I've never been bothered about what my parents or ex husband thoguht about the matter, it's my choice always will be.

Actually reading back, if you have had bad experiences with Muslim men I'm not surprised your so vehement about your point, and I hope your dog bit a good sized chunk of the guys leg too!!!

Reality - I pointed out that children find veils intimidating I did not say this was the reason they should be banned.

Fuzzywuzzy it's great you have the opportunity to wear 'what the heck you like' but I'm sure you'd agree that any woman visiting, say, Saudi Arabia who fancied going topless would not share your confidence.

edam, my work colleague, a lovely woman from essex and not remotely 'mozlem' (I may be her only 'mozlem' friend actually), wears an abbaya....at the beach!!!!

OK so fine she burns and a long, chic, airy abaya appealed to her for her hlidays in Spain, she's worn one to the bar there and restaurants too, I gave it her when she admired mine, she's a red head and burns at the thoguht of the sun to be honest, she loves the abaya to pieces!!! Make of that what you will...

Oh and I've never discussed Islam with her beyond any questions she might have asked me in the past, and I'm pretty sure she's not about to convert, or that her husband is forcing her to wear an abaya either!

Turkey doesn't ban women who wear headscarves from working. It has a law that states that women working in govt. buildings or organisations shouldn't wear them. Which is great. I lived there for three years and the bullying tactics used aganist women who didn't waer them in our parot of Turkey was staggering.

Same law in France. You wouldn't believe how much energy is wasted in trying to flout it. My sister teaches and frequently tells stories of girls turning up in headscarves.They are asked to remove them and lo and behold! there is another underneath but legally they have complied.It is pathetic. Additionally there are many 'protest' marches about the rights of Muslims. Invariably a small group of women is surrounded by their 'brothers' who prevent you getting close and asking the opinion of the so called protesters.

Stitchtime, your ridiculous comment
'the women i know who wear a face veil, do so because they choose to do so. it isincredibly empowering to do so..' riles me.It isn't 'empowering' it is pathetic attention seeking.

I'll go with the veil as a symbol of modesty and religious fervourr when men wear them.Which they don't and never will.

Fuzzy, that wasn't me with the dog - although i did say that i have found it a worry that some of today's young muslim males seem to have a very negative view of western women. I've not had a problem I am probably too much of an old hag to bother with - my 17 year old niece who, by teenage standards, dresses fairly modestly has been called a 'whore' and a 'slut' a few times by young muslim guys.

Spidermama, it's against the law to go topless in Saudi, on the other hand you'd get arrested in england for going utterly naked down your local high street too.

I bet there are people who completely object to clothing but they have to obey the law!

I really object to Christians being executed in Saudi, alcohol and churches being banned and women prevented from driving.

Uncalled for and more than a tad nasty.

Wasn't there a legal case in this country about a girl who wanted to wear some extreme form of Islamic dress to school - and didn't it turn out to be her older brother who was funding the case/pushing her into it? IIRC she went to a school that had a uniform specially designed for Muslim pupils and approved by the local Mosque anyway.

Although there's a huge other issue about the relationship between Mosques in this country and women - I gather there are plenty of them that don't even let women through the doors.

Riven, let's clarify here because I think not everyone is familiar with what the words mean - you wear a headscarf right?

Your face is exposed?

Additionally there is some black humour in the enormous bearded women with few teeth that I used to come across in Turkey that were being modest with their femininity.

Ladies, don't flatter yerselves!

No, generally women don't go to the mosque.They stay home with the kids while the men hang out and talk shite, the mosque being much more than a place of worship.

Quelle surprise