Please uncover your face-Matthew Parrish

[mrsruffallo]

Interesting article here
I have noticed that there are more women covering up in the last few years.
Any opinions?

Are there different versions of the Qu'ran? Just like there's different versions of the bible?

I wouldn't wear the veil..for me its going a step too far but I have a friend who used to live in Damascus who did wear the veil because she felt more comfortable doing so and she wore gloves because she was very pale with a tendency to excema and she found the drying air of Damascus really played havoc with her hands...again, personal choice

As a Muslim, I get really with countries that mis-interpret Islam and to the extreme...I mean Khadijah (May Allah Protect her), the first wife of the Prophet (PBUH) was a business woman, she rode horses, she dealt with men. The Muslim women in the times of the Prophet (PBUH) took a very active part in the politics of the time and their opinion was valued and considered

The problem is that patriarchial (sp!) societies such as Afghanistan and Saudi have mis-interpreted and exploited Islam to suit their political/personal needs and we know what the result of that has been...it needs to change

King Canute- some muslim men do wear head coverings like these or pc taken from rear or even this but the have less hair to cover and are shorter, i have also seen older men drape big shawls over their heads and bodies but i couldnt get a pic on google

I have only seen men cover their faces for pactical reasons(sand/cold etc) and i think traditionally it was done in battlesomight be seen as aggressive like a balaclava on a burgula i suppose

Men arent allowed to dress in an overtly feminine way and so wouldnt wear a hijab headscarf as such

It is worth remembering that islam like christianity has different sects and scholars who interepret things differently,so the ruling about men and womennot related by blood or certain in law relationships being alone together has differentg rulings varying from 'never underany circumstance' to'allowed as long as there is no bad intention' although active friendships are discouraged i would hazard a guess that your colleagues followed a system with rulings in the vein of the later

(Apologies toallfor poor images,amkeeping the kids waiting tofeed the ducks soare fast googles butr shouldgoive a vague idea)

and as you may guess my space bar is sticky

That is sort of what I meant, if men can choose to cover their heads/faces if they so wish and if they interpret things that way then it cannot really be argued that the veil is "wrong" because only women wear it IYSWIM. As long as there some kind of similar choice available to men then it is not as unequal as it is being presented here.

I accept that it may be a mens version and a womens version or whatever but the priciple stands IMO!

You make very good points Riven.

What perhaps we UK non-Muslims need to see is vociferous UK Muslim women, dressed in head scarves and veils, demanding on UK media channels that the rights of Saudi women and Afghan women (and women in other ountries) be respected and allowed to take off their veils if they wish - as many women around the Middle East clearly already choose to do.

Now that would be a message that would break a fair few Western preconceptions and upset quite a lot of people in certain oppressive parts of the Muslim world.

Can I just ask again about the no-male-friends thing? As i said, my pre-SAHM job was in science, very male-dominated, sadly, and (to coin a phrase) some of my best friends are blokes. And I manage not to shag them. But I like talking about computer games and politics and, er, science, not girlie stuff!

Would you feel comfortable being friends with an overweight science nerd who you know you wouldn't sleep with in the event of, y'know, swine flu wiping out the rest of the men in the world?
(I'd ask if you could be friends with a gay man but we'd better just leave that can of worms sealed...)

"Did they smile back?

Oh sorry you wouldn't know would you if they smiled or scowled in response. "

I guess you hang out with botoxed people?!? You can certainly tell when someone is smiling back from the eyes! Although most frequently there is a nod as well.

EvenBetaDad Yasmin Alibhai-Brown does something similar (though she does not wear headscarf AFAIK)

I think you should combine this thread with the one that wants to ban men wearing what they like to wear because it bothers someone else.

AIBU to think men should keep their shirts on in

My position is that women have the right to wear masks if they want and men can take their shirts off they are hot (or women too), but everyone else is entitled to dislike it if they happen to do so.

So it's fine to say "I don't invite fred to my cocktail parties because he turns up without a shirt on and I hate that"
"I don't invite Mirriam to my party because she turns up wearing a mask and I don't like that either"

So yes the right to do things which are not illegal but not a right to demand that everyone like/approve of it.

HelloBeastie - yes Yasmin Alibhai-Brown is a lone voice on mainstream channels and I have heard she is criticised by some moderate UK Muslims for her views.

Had to laugh at this comment:

"my pre-SAHM job was in science, very male-dominated, sadly, and (to coin a phrase) some of my best friends are blokes. And I manage not to shag them. But I like talking about computer games and politics and, er, science, not girlie stuff!"

We have lived the same life (except I am SAHD)!

...in the sense you are an ex-scientist, or in the sense that you hang around with a lot of women?!

I can think of no worse hell than to be stuck in a room full of women discussing calories and fake tan for more than about 10 minutes...

Most men I know are funny, interesting and pleasant company. Why should I deny myself that company on the offchance that I might have a sudden brainstorm and want to start an affair with one of them?

Quite apart from the rather insulting premise that none of us has enough self control to be permitted friendship with an unrelated member of the opposite sex, I made wedding vows. I assume (please correct me if I'm wrong) that a muslim wedding ceremony has similar promises of fidelity before God and man? So why not trust people to keep these promises?

I have loads of male friends. DH has female friends. I wouldn't stand for being told I couldn't see them anymore and the same goes for him.

In fact the more I think about this the more annoyed and insulted I am by the idea that we're all uncontrollable animals who, unless kept separated and covered over, will start merrily shagging away with one another...

fruitbeard- you obviously haven't met the right women
at your description of women- you are joking- right?

Yeah I have to say that I couldn't stand to be told I couldn't have sex before marriage either but then I'm not a Catholic.

I don't think there's any point in running down a religion because it dictates to its followers to do stuff that puts restrictions on their own lives but doesn't really impact on other people. I think the veil sort of transcends that because it does impact on people around you because it cuts you off from others in your community which, like I said in my earlier posts, makes me a bit sad.

I have found this thread very interesting. I do have some Muslim colleagues at work but don't know any of them well enough to be able to discuss some of the day to day stuff about their beliefs so thanks for sharing pussinJCs and Riven

HelloBeastie - both

I was thinking about this after I logged off earlier and one thing I didn't put across is that as a Muslim, my one main goal throughout my life, is to please God. I may not always do it, I may fumble and slip up - I'm not perfect and God knows this and recognises my struggle

So, when I mix in female circles and shy away from male company, I'm doing it to please God. When I cover up, it isn't for society, for my husband or for my friends - its for God alone. The same applies for all the things I do in my every day life - trying not to gossip, to be kind to my neighbours, to bring my child up in the best possible way as thanks for the blessing we have been given

We live in a culture where people generally cannot comprehend someone aiming to please God. People want proof of existence, reasons, logic..so, a woman veiling as part of her expression of her relationship with God, they cannot really understand the meaning behind it

As for people being animals who can't control themselves...well to be honest, a walk in any city centre on a Saturday night with women urinating in the street, men bearing their arses and people leaving night clubs with strangers for sex...well quite frankly, I think jungle animals have a better code of conduct

Sorry, I was referring to what PussinJimmyChoos said earlier wrt all-female conversation - possibly she was joking (certainly hope so!).

Of course I have female friends and we talk about far more than that. But to be 'forbidden' to be friends with men just seems a little... well, alien.

Sorry if that came across as running the entire religion down, I am finding this thread really illuminating and interesting. I do however wonder how much of the 'can't be alone with a man/woman' business is actually in the Koran or merely a cultural interpretation of it?

And who brought catholicism into this....?

You can be friends with men, just not alone with them.

I would like to stress though, I do talk about more things than fake tan and calorie counting! I have a BSc!!

I brought Catholicism into it Fruitbeard, just because as an atheist brought up in an atheist household I find most religions quite mystifying and I don't find Islam any more mystifying than Judaism or Catholicism really. The difference (for me) with Islam is that I don't have any close Muslim friends so I have nobody to ask about the beliefs.