Please uncover your face-Matthew Parrish

[mrsruffallo]

Interesting article here
I have noticed that there are more women covering up in the last few years.
Any opinions?

Riven - well I suppose any woman would!

"If you approached ra[n]dom veiled women in the street and wanted to talk about the situation in North Korea I'm sure they would edge away!"

My sense though from your answer and the demeanour of the veiled women I have seen (mainly Saudi women in London) is that outside a 'permitted formal communication area' such as in a hospital or school where the Muslim woman is a doctor or a teacher, communication with a Muslim woman wearing a veil is forbidden. I am not sure that communication as 'normal politeness' would be permitted to occur either. As Mathew Parris says the woman would look away and walk away.

Is that a fair conclusion?

As I say, I have enjoyed close working relationships with devout Muslim women from the Middle East who wear head scarves. I am not at all sure they woudl react to me that way. Indeed, one of them approached me to ask if I would work with her .

There is a big difference between the way non muslim people perceive things said by muslim men or women, dh has had got into trouble for covering from the naval to the knee at swimming pools (we won at trip tp pontins and the wouldnt let him take dd in the pool and another leisure centre) but when he goes to the managament and says "I'm no doing this to wind you up but because its a religous requirement" people thinks its very big of him and that he must be very pious they never ask him if I force him to do this, sadly the same people always reckon dh must be forcing me to do anything modest i do

My dd will wear a headscarf not a face covering and i feel that is my perogative as a parent in the same way that opther parents put their girls in what i see to be tarty and suggestive clothes, did anyone else see those girls knickers in new look in infant school age sizes with 'Take MY' and a pic of a cherry beneath on?

Does the ban on making friends with non-related persons of the opposite sex apply equally to men and women? Or just to women?

Just wondering. Partly because I've met an awful lot of Muslim men over the years, socially and professionally, and never come across any sign they are uncomfortable in my company!

I'd be rather offended if Muslim men were avoiding my presence for fear I would leap on them - or that they wouldn't be able to restrain themselves. Blimey.

I once had a Sikh man refuse to be in my presence - although it wasn't just me. Load of women gathered at a friend's house just before going to a Sikh wedding. Her father came downstairs and didn't acknowledge us, just walked straight out of the front door.

Someone asked our friend 'is your Dad OK?' and she explained yes, he was fine, but he just couldn't sit in a room with a load of women who weren't relatives. Seemed a little rude to me. Even if those are his rules, a swift 'hello' would have been polite, as he knew full well most of us weren't Sikh and wouldn't be up on his etiquette.

Just out of interest Riven, if a muslim man choose to wear a veil what would happen? I know they would probably be looked on as a little odd, the same as a man who chooses to wear ladies clothes in public here would be but are there any actual implications religiously or culturally beyond those we would experience in white western culture?

PussinJimmyChoos - not sure where to start on this confession.

"Women and men that are not related by blood - i.e they can marry, are not allowed to be alone together."

Oh dear - the devout Muslim women I used to work with in their head scarves inviting me into their tiny office, shutting the door, joining me for a coffee.

"The easiest way to avoid it, is to not mix."

The devout Muslim women I worked with were always around men (and wmen) in our offices.

The devout Muslim women I used to teach sat in their head scarves in a lecture hall practically seething with men. Coming up to me after he lecture talking to me alone or even emailing me and inviting themselves to my office.

I never knew!

As Spicemonster says, how do you cope at work?

It applies to both men and women

Its not just about finding a man attractive and not doing anything about it...you could find a man attractive and then go home and make comparisons between your DH and them and although you haven't actually done anything, there is the potential for seeds of discontent to be sown in the marriage - and this works both ways - men comparing a female friend to their wife and the wife is found to be lacking or a man with her husband. How many people leave marriages because they think the grass is greener on the other side, even without having an affair?? Its happening all the time

I do have meetings with men on my own but its all in an office environment, not as if we are in a cosy restaurant booth and half tiddled on wine is it

So, if men are free to make the choice to wear a veil if they see fit but choose not to excercise that then the whole "oh but men don't" argument is a bit null and void isn't it?

But if you are in the company of another married couple you could still have those seeds of doubt sown couldn't you? Even if you didn't have an affair?
And marriages that end in divorce are usually for complicated and insurmountable problems not really thinking the grass is greener on the other side
Wouldn't you say?

We generally don't mix with other married couples - the sexes tend to segregate - women in one room and men in another - and it works fine as I find what the men talk about boring anyway

Yes of course, marriages end for a number of reasons but, in societies where the sexes can and do freely mix, the divorce rate and number of extra marital affairs are through the roof. Not to mention unwanted pregancies, teenage mums etc - coincidence?? I don't think so

Pyuss- assuming you live in England aren't you p[art of a society where the sexes mix though?

I think it's great to live in a society where women and men can befriend whomever they choose. Divorce rates are high, but as I said before, I don't think that is necessarily because the sexes mix. There are many reasons marriages work out and I think it's great that women have the freedom to leave an unhappy marriage.
As a society that is sexually liberal then yes we are going to encounter unwanted pregnancies and teenage pregnancies.
I am sure these things occur in all walks of life.
I am sure a strict religious society had its own set of problems too

So Puss and Riven, neither of you have any male friends?

Wow.

Riven you're not choosing though - it's forbidden.

I'm an English convert to Islam so do live here.

Yes I agree its the norm here for sexes to mix but I choose not to where possible. I accept that I have a mixed sex work place and I don't stress about it - as you said, its part of UK society.

I just don't get involved in the after work parties or gatherings and in my spare time, I mix with other women

No male friends...why would I need them?? I can't talk to men about my calorie intake for the day and what fake tan is best for me

Riven/KingCanute/PussinJimmyChoos - OK thank you for all your answers.

The take away message I get on on this issue, based on my reading of your answers and the Mathew Parris article is that the Qu'ran does not command a Muslim woman to wear a veil or cover her face and body completely but only 'dress modestly'.

The Qu'ran does not command Muslim women not to talk to men either [it was nice for me to be able to talk to, debate with and better understand Muslim women on here though].

However, some Muslim women in the UK do choose to wear a veil and not talk or be alone with men who are not blood relatives and that creates a barrier to communication with the remainder of UK society. If they do wear a veil that is (hopefully) their choice but in so doing they will partly or completley cut themselves off from UK society they live in.

In the end, I suppose my/our Western view of the veiled Muslim woman in the UK is always going to be influenced by images of veiled Muslim women in Saudi Arabia under Wahabi influence and Afghanistan under Taliban influence who have no/little choice but to wear the veil.

The image of oppression and the veiled Muslim woman is inextricably linked - even if UK Muslim women who have the freedom to choose assert their right to self expression.

A right that I think we all respect.