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Pregnant Woman Told To Leave Pub

470 replies

stinkymonkey · 31/03/2009 15:53

the nanny state continues

I can understand where the landlord is coming from, though I don't agree with what she did.

OP posts:
whoops · 01/04/2009 13:43

she has just been talking on the local news and she said she felt humiliated in front of a new group of friends.
If I was pg with a new bunch of friends I would be drinking soft drinks

Kathyis6incheshigh · 01/04/2009 13:45

What I don't get is, given how responsible licensees apparently are, where on earth do all those drunk people throwing up in the street on a Friday and Saturday night come from?

OracleInaCoracle · 01/04/2009 13:47

kathy, they shouldn't have been served. not all licensees are responsible (even though the law requires them to be) no doubt the next pub along she could have been offered a vodka chaser with her pint.

Vamanos · 01/04/2009 13:52

Whoops - not sure I understand your comment
"If I was pg with a new bunch of friends I would be drinking soft drinks"

If you were pg with an old group of friends would you behave differently?

Kathyis6incheshigh · 01/04/2009 13:53

But the inconsistency is just ridiculous isn't it Lissielou - if some licensees are genuinely worried they could lose their license for giving a pregnant woman a few drinks, and yet down the road there is another landlord getting away with allowing his customers to create violence, vomit and mayhem.

OracleInaCoracle · 01/04/2009 13:58

i agree kathy, and thats why the laws are becoming more and more inflexible. the government has tried to curb the marketing of alcohol by setting guidelines, it has tried to manage the sale of alcohol by enforcing the objectives and making it much harder to get a license. there will always be people who drink themselves into a stupor, there will always be landlords and barstaff who will continue to serve them, but this story isnt about them. its about a pregnant woman who was refused another drink (as is within the the staffs rights, in line with objectives set by law) in one pub.

StewieGriffinsMom · 01/04/2009 14:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

OracleInaCoracle · 01/04/2009 14:11

stewie, thats awful. the poor mite.

on a personal note, i don't understand continuing to drink and smoke while pg. when you are a parent yu are responsible for the wellbeing of that child. and to all those who are outraged at the idea of being treated as an incubator - for nine months you ARE incubating a child. everything you eat and/or drink passes through to your child.

BoffinMum · 01/04/2009 14:41

Lissielou, no it doesn't. That what the placenta is for.

OracleInaCoracle · 01/04/2009 14:43

but some of it does pass through. so some alcohol etc does get to the foetus.

BoffinMum · 01/04/2009 14:50

Exactly, some, but not everything. You said everything. The problem is that there is disagreement on exactly what passes over. It might even vary according to the individual. We don't do many tests because the research industry isn't very interested in this as a topic - there's not enough money and kudos in it for them. Oddly enough, in getting in a flap about relatively small levels of alcohol, we might inadvertently be denying some pg women particular nutritional benefits derived from fermented hops and grapes that may actually be beneficial to mother and foetus (benefits to the cardiovascular system). The reality is we just don't know.

If you want a healthy baby, pushing for top quality ante-natal care is statistically more important and relevant than avoiding the odd glass of wine or even a bit of Brie. But it is easier for people to think otherwise, because people don't like to try to judge risk properly and tend to go on feelings and prejudices.

OracleInaCoracle · 01/04/2009 14:58

fairpoint boffinmum, as i said i was speaking from a personal point of view and expressing my own feelings on the matter. I wouldn't drink/smoke/eat tuna/brie and so on while pg. because i would rather follow the recommended guidelines than put my baby at even the tiniest risk. when my mum was pg with me she smoked, drank guinness and was craving raw meat and im fine, but the guidelines then were very different. and i wouldnt take the risk.

Vamanos · 01/04/2009 15:01

Alcohol in moderation can also be useful for stress relief and relaxation, both of which the average pregnant woman is likely to be grateful for.

Though obviously being turfed out of a pub doesn't really contribute in this regard.

OracleInaCoracle · 01/04/2009 15:04

sorry, i digressed. my point is that licensees are legally obliged to serve alcohol responsibly. they can refuse service to anyone they see fit. noone has a "right" to be served alcohol. in this case the barstaff/assistant manager felt that by refusing service they would be upholding stringent laws. these laws are in place for a clear reason, not every pub does follow the objectives as they should. many pubs continue to serve drunk patrons, alcoholics, underage drinkers. but they are breaking the law.

OracleInaCoracle · 01/04/2009 15:06

but they were thrown out for consuming alcohol when service had been refused. what if a 16 yo was refused a pint (or even a half). told that since they were with friends and family (who were drinking) they could stay as long as they drank soft drinks. they then drank their friends/family members drink. would that be wrong?

onagar · 01/04/2009 15:14

Of course it's wrong for them to refuse to serve pregnant women because of their own prejudices about drinking. Next they will be asking for a note from your DH to say it's ok for you to be out on your own.

I think it's funny to hear the pub owner speaking of morals given that they make their money on selling this stuff.

On the brighter side though if they start refusing all women in case they are pregnant we smokers will have the satisfaction of seeing how the drinkers like it

DSM · 01/04/2009 15:18

I am amazed at how people can post on this thread, now, saying that it is wrong for the licensee to have refused service.

Read the thread ffs.

Vamanos · 01/04/2009 15:19

But presumably the 16 year old would have been refused in the first place because they were underage - ie they were refused for a good reason? Whereas this woman was neither underage nor (as far as we know) behaving badly or drunkenly when she was refused.

I understand the point about it being illegal to drink someone's drink once you have been refused. imo the situation would have been better handled by the group if they had all walked out there and then, and never set foot in the place again.

OracleInaCoracle · 01/04/2009 15:22

onagar, but the point i am making is that they have to adhere to the objectives there are many pubs that don't and come september when legistlation changes again they will be in a world of crap. but this particular pub obviously takes their responsibilty very seriously. lets not forget that alcohol is a drug and the objectives are in place to control the sale and consumption of it.

i genuinely dont see what they have done wrong.

christiana · 01/04/2009 15:56

Message withdrawn

DSM · 01/04/2009 16:02

Lissielou.. I spent ages yesterday trying to get people to understand the laws and responsibilities behind this, and sadly it seemed to fall on deaf ears.

Having read your posts, I fail to see why anyone would still think the licensee was in thew wrong in some way, I think you have made your point well.

DSM · 01/04/2009 16:04

Christiana - the recommended daily is limit is just that, recommended.

I am sure you are aware that different people can drink different amounts before they would be deemed to have had too much, and this decision ultimately falls with the person who has been legally given a license to sell alcohol, and make such decisions.

WilfSell · 01/04/2009 16:09

From just one peer-reviewed source:

Current Pharmaceutical Design, 2006, Vol. 12, No. 12 Ernest L. Abel

Since it was not alcohol per se but its abuse that Jones and Smith associated with the pattern of anomalies they identified, a more appropriate term for the disorder is ?fetal alcohol abuse syndrome? [5]. By simply labeling it ?fetal alcohol syndrome? Jones and Smith succeeded in bringing
this birth defect to international attention, but it also resulted
in widespread error and apprehension that any amount of alcohol consumption during pregnancy posed a comparable danger to alcohol abuse.
This error is not confined to the general public. In the United States, a third of the more than 350 obstetricians and
general practitioners in Michigan believe that the syndrome can result from consumption of as little as one drink a day
[6] although the syndrome has never been found in the absence of maternal alcoholism. One of the reasons for this error is, what German pediatrician Dr. Hans Spohr, who has
been studying the syndrome for many decades, calls ?diagnosis by association.? ?They (most physicians) see a ?funnylooking?
child, they have heard about FAS, and if somebody says the mother is drinking, they make the diagnosis? [7, p. 153].

The fact that large numbers of clinicians and researchers now believe that even minimal amounts of alcohol consumption
during pregnancy can produce the syndrome has
created a moral panic about drinking during pregnancy [8] that has exaggerated its dangers, inflated the number of children
allegedly affected, and has possibly resulted in the inappropriate
treatment of thousands of children. The fact is that the United States, which has one of the lowest rates of alcohol consumption in the western world, has the highest
rate of fetal alcohol syndrome [9].
Even more contentious is the belief that minimal amounts of alcohol can cause some of the individual anomalies that comprise the syndrome. These effects have been ariouslycalled ?fetal alcohol effects? (FAE), ?alcohol-related birth defects?(ARBD), prenatal alcohol effects (PAE), ?prenatal exposure to alcohol? (PEA), alcohol-related neurodevelopmental
disorder (ARND), and most recently, ?fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, (FASD), a burgeoning lexicon suggesting
more than disagreement about the nature of the disorder attempting
to be categorized. Despite this uncertainty, the subcategory
has often been interpreted as referring to an attenuated
severity of FAS [10]. However, the damage is the same
whether it occurs as a singular anomaly or as a component of
a pattern of anomalies. The likely explanation is that one or
more anomalies resulting from maternal alcohol abuse result
from exposure on specific days of fetal development whereas
the full blown syndrome results from exposure throughout
pregnancy. In other words, the amount of drinking associated
with the proximate cause - - alcohol abuse - - is the same;
what differs is the pattern of exposure. The fact that it is not
an occasional drink or two, but a considerable amount of
drinking during pregnancy, especially when consistent,
which produces prenatal damage, is more than evident from
the clinical case literature.

everGreensleeves · 01/04/2009 16:16

You seem to be making much of this "license to sell alcohol", "social responsibility" schtick, DSM.

Bartenders/publicans/barmaids are not qualified or trained members of the 'caring professions', they have no medical background and no special training to enable to them to take up this elevated position of authority over the general public. The idea of the guidelines is to ensure that they have the basic nouse to throw people out when they become lairy/start yakking all over the floor, rather than continuine to funnel vodka down their next. It's laughable to suggest that someone who works behind a bar is in a position to determine whether or not a second glass of lager is going to cause FAS. Utter poppycock.

WilfSell · 01/04/2009 16:16

BJOG. 2007 Mar;114(3):243-52. Epub 2007 Jan 12. Links

Systematic review of effects of low-moderate prenatal alcohol exposure on pregnancy outcome.Henderson J, Gray R, Brocklehurst P.
National Perinatal Epidemiology Unit, University of Oxford, Old Road Campus, Oxford, UK.

OBJECTIVE: The aim of this study was to review systematically the available evidence on studies in humans on the effects of low-moderate levels of prenatal alcohol consumption (up to 10.4 UK units or 83 g/week) compared with consumption of no alcohol on pregnancy outcome. DESIGN: Systematic review. POPULATION: Pregnant women or women who are trying to become pregnant. METHODS: The search strategy included Medline, Embase, Cinahl and PsychInfo for the years 1970-2005. Titles and abstracts were read by two researchers and inclusion/exclusion being decided according to prespecified criteria. All the included articles were then obtained and read in full by the two researchers to decide on inclusion. The articles were assessed for quality using the Newcastle-Ottawa Quality Assessment Scales. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Outcomes considered were miscarriage, stillbirth, intrauterine growth restriction, prematurity, birthweight, small for gestational age at birth and birth defects including fetal alcohol syndrome. RESULTS: The search resulted in 3630 titles and abstracts, which were narrowed down to 46 relevant articles. At low-moderate levels of consumption, there were no consistently significant effects of alcohol on any of the outcomes considered. Many of the reported studies had methodological weaknesses. CONCLUSIONS: This systematic review found no convincing evidence of adverse effects of prenatal alcohol exposure at low-moderate levels of exposure. However, weaknesses in the evidence preclude the conclusion that drinking at these levels during pregnancy is safe.

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