Pregnant Woman Told To Leave Pub

[stinkymonkey]

the nanny state continues

I can understand where the landlord is coming from, though I don't agree with what she did.

DSM, it's not that it has fallen on deaf ears - I agree with you that, after having refused service, it was not illegal to throw her out after she then drank someone else's drink. The real question, however, is whether the landlord should have refused to serve her in the first instance.

Personally, I do not see that the landlord has any legal grounds for forming the view that the lady in question is entitled to drink two units but not a third unit. I presume that this landlord does not refuse to serve other women on the basis that they have consumed two units already. As he therefore expressly refused her service on the basis of her pregnancy (an issue that only affects women) he has indirectly discriminated against her on the basis of gender, which is not legal.

By DSM on Wed 01-Apr-09 16:04:26
Christiana - the recommended daily is limit is just that, recommended.

I am sure you are aware that different people can drink different amounts before they would be deemed to have had too much, and this decision ultimately falls with the person who has been legally given a license to sell alcohol, and make such decisions

exactly! it falls upon the licensee to make a reasoned decision based on the circumstancs and information at hand. that is why not every tom dick and harry can get a license. you take exams, you have many aspects of your life looked into (financial and social) you write a proposal to support your application for a license, all of this to prove that you will sell a drug responsibly and within the boundaries of the law.

and thank you btw, right back at you.

wildseahorses, he wasnt refusing to serve her because she is a woman. he refused to serve because she is carrying a child. maybe she appeared tipsy after her pint (i have a low tolerance to alcohol since i was pg with ds and can get tipsy on a pint) or maybe he felt that he was protecting the child that she is carrying.

a woman refused to let me have a sample of unpasteurised cheese when I was about 7 months pregant - was I horribly embarassed? no not really. Up to the landlord who they want to serve - we might disagree with them but its their perogative.

I'm about 3 months preg, if I was refused alcohol in a bar I just wouldn't go back.

but the amount for pg women are guidelines DSM - and your argument is that the daily limit is recommended!

Lissie, the fact that only women can get pregnant and he refused to serve her because she was pregnant means that he has indirectly discriminated against her on the basis of her sex. If she had appeared tipsy, he should have given that as the reason for refusing service. He did not do so, therefore we have to assume that she did not appear to be drunk.

Would you consider it acceptable to be refused service in a bar if you were pregnant? I don't, and I don't think it is acceptable for any landlord to decide that he can 'protect' foetuses. A foetus has no rights in law.

The laws against discrimination make it clear that you may NOT treat a pregnant woman differently by reason of her condition - it is sex discrimination since men can't get pregnant.

The licensee is free under the law to refuse to serve anyone unless it is for discriminatory reasons. Which this was.

Landlady is a self-righteous, officious twonk IMO. She is not a doctor and her customers' lifestyles are none of her business unless they are pissed or breaking the law in some way.

Jobsworth, jobsworth, more than me jobsworth

I pointed out the dscrimination for goods and services but apparently this is different due to some duty of care.

i would not order alcohol for myself in a bar while pg, but if i did and i was refused service then i wouldnt be upset, because i know that the advice is to not drink during pg. someone made the point earlier that a man with cirriosis(sp) of the liver was served alcohol on tv. that is an irresponsible sale. the licensee has an obligation to protect the health and wellbeing of his or her customers. manys a time that ive refused service on the grounds of them being drunk to be called all the names under the sun (self-righteous/fascist/do-gooder etc) i refused service because i felt that it was for their best intrests that i didnt sell them any more alcohol. if i hadnt refused service and allowed them to continue drinking i would have been derelict in my duty as a responsible professional.

SPB, as I understand it the duty of care is owed to the customer (and to anyone whose rights are infringed by the customer's drunken behaviour). As the foetus has no rights, I do not see how this can apply to it and therefore pregnant women should not be refused service on the basis that it wcould affect the foetus.

just searched thread for 'duty of care' and can't find it. Dunno if there is a specific ruling about landlords having a duty of care to customers but no-one has a duty of care to a foetus as it has no independent existence.

Lissie, I have to say that I wouldn't drink either, but I feel that it is a choice that women should make for themselves (rather than have it thrust upon them by landlords).

exactly edam, no independant existance. the foetus is dependant on the mother. is it then ok for a woman to take coke or heroin while pg because the foetus has "no rights"? is the dealer right to sell these substances to a pg woman because the foetus has "no rights"?

That's a bit of a facile point. Alcohol is distinct from heroin and coke because it's a legal drug. It isn't illegal for a pregnant woman to drink.

Sorry not "duty of care", but social responsibility

By DSM on Tue 31-Mar-09 21:52:00

sorry, going off subject a bit there. i am not comparing alcohol to illegal substances (although its worth noting that alcohol is also an incredibly dangerous drug is not used correctly, which is why the laws regarding its sale are so stringent)

They're not remotely stringent when it comes to a pregnant woman having a couple of glasses of beer though. In fact there is no law relating to that at all.

greeny, yes, alcohol is legal, but still dangerous enough to be fiercely regulated. in fact the only reason it is still legal (like tobacco) is due to the amount of tax paid on it.

I disagree. It's still legal because it's moderate use by adults causes no ill effects and it is culturally ingrained.

The fact remains that these "stringent" laws and regulations are quiet on the subject of pregnant women drinking a few units. Because it's nobody's business but the woman whose body it is.

the law regarding the sale of alcohol to everyone is stringent. you dont walk into the council and say "i'd like a personal license please, oh, and i'll take a premises one too whileim at it, £10? thanks, i'll have it to go"

well, that applies to the sale of knock-off lighters at ten for a pound too. You have to have a licence to sell. Same goes for busking these days, and collecting for charity.

The landlord's responsibility is to prevent self-destructive dangerous drunken antics. This idiot used this very woolly guideline to impose her own bossy ill-informed opinion on an adult woman who was presenting no alcohol-related problems at all.

Isn't the real issue here that, despite there being no law against pregnant women drinking alcohol, some people still feel it's ok to restrict it as they see fit, i.e. their (potentially uninformed) views, or their prejudices, are allowed to override the judgment of the pregnant women. No other minority group would accept that kind of treatment. I am not arguing that pregnant women should go out on benders, but I think it is dangerous to allow people such a degree of control over their behaviour. No other minority group would accept that.

but the laws and regulations state that the license holder can refuse to serve alcohol on any basis to anyone they wish. if the holder feels that the customer's health and wellbeing is at risk by continued consumption they are obliged to cease service. if that customer continues to drink on the premises after service has been refused they are breaking the law.

Lissie - exactly so - the customer's wellbeing. Not the foetus' wellbeing.