Pregnant Woman Told To Leave Pub

[stinkymonkey]

the nanny state continues

I can understand where the landlord is coming from, though I don't agree with what she did.

OK SGM I have a huge problem with that site after the first few paragraphs: 'women who are sexually active should not drink alcohol in case they are pregnant'. Hey, why not just lock up all women of childbearing age? They might do something that might affect their only function: incubator.

I think the landlady was way out of order. But at least being embarrassed and made to feel like a child abuser by an uninformed busybody will set the mum-to-be up very nicely for the experience of parenting. Just wait for the outcry when she breastfeeds in the local cafe/ formula feeds at all/ fails to immunise child/ immunises child/ feeds child McDonalds burger/ raises child as vegetarian....

'uninformed busybody'

I am seriously struggling to understand some peoples opinions, honestly.

It was none of the bar staff's business. I thought this was a free country, or am I wrong? People's liberties are fastly dissappering IMO. I find it greatly disturbing. Who's read Orwell's Nineteen Eighty Four?

I'm a little appalled at one or two of the things I've read on this thread, like
"National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence had previously (2007) said 1.5 units per day was OK"

And the reason there is now complete hysteria about consumption of any alcohol? Because it was thought that women would find this too confusing, bless their pretty little empty heads. Better to abstain entirely.

"the Royal College recommends that the only way to be absolutely certain that your baby is not harmed by alcohol is not to drink at all during pregnancy or while you are trying for a baby."

Do they now. I assume they are also aware that the only way to be absolutely certain that your baby is not harmed by food is not to eat at all during pregnancy or while you are trying for a baby.

And also that the only way to be absolutely certain that your baby is not harmed by breathing car exhaust fumes is not to breathe at all during pregnancy or while you are trying for a baby.

The concept of absolutes is ridiculous in these situations. Each pregnant woman has the right to decide for herself how much risk she is willing to accept, and what her own actions will be to mitigate any risk. I may disagree vehemently with another woman's choices but I would defend to the end her right to make them.

The landlady's actions suggest that she would treat all pregnant women the same way, whch is to discriminate against an entire group. Illegally, I presume.

You're very welcome, chequersmate. Smug, unhelpful personally anecdotal comments unrelated to the topic being discussed are always add so much to the debate and most certainly merit appropriate comment.

DSM, it's clear to me why she was sipping from her friend's drink. She had just been treated like an errant idiot child, so it was pretty natural for her to rebel by having a sip out of someone else's pint, thereby falling into the role clearly expected of her. It was a way of saying 'you can't tell me what to do'.

Better that the landlord had been pleasant and treated her like an adult. That would have promoted adult behaviour, and not a regression into slightly naughty adolescent behaviour.

General point now - A lot of this pseudo-science claptrap comes out because nobody will fund or carry out proper studies on pg women, because it is too much trouble ethically (extra committees to go through and so on; nothing in it for people's careers or drug companies' profits). We should remember that most of the everyday medicines pg women are prescribed are not tested specifically for this purpose, and carry an element of 'risk', most likely much more than alcohol does. But are we really going to stop treating pg women on this basis? Of course not.

Can I ask a question of those who think it was right that this woman was refused service: at the moment the fetus has no legal rights until after birth (other than it being illegal to perform an abortion on a 'healthy' fetus after 24 weeks). Would you support a change in the law to give the fetus legal rights which compel a woman to give up smoking, drinking etc and to heed medical advice, including a cesarean section if doctors recommended it?

DSM, I was just thinking that if this pregnant woman was sipping from her friends drink, that prehaps the licencee thought that the pregnant woman had already had a few too many.

Sipping from someone else's drink when the licencee has refused to serve you is often a sign of having a few too many. Its certainly not adult behaviour.

I totally agree with you DSM, although it has been a long time since I worked behind a bar. I have only ever been a bar person and not a licencee. I suspect that the people who are so quick to critise the landlady have never pulled a pint.

i think there's more to this story. could be quite possible the pg lady in question had perhaps had one too many in the past as it is her regular.

landlord was ensuring she never went overboard and ended up drunk again.

landlord nor pg lady would mention to papers if she had been drunk in the bar before. as it would look bad on both sides. landlord as they shouldn't have allowed her to get in such a state.pg lady as she shouldn't have got herself in that state.

DaisyMooSteiner: are you thinking of Angela Carder? That still sends shivers down my spine...

SGM - Personally, I don't agree with drinking to excess in pregnancy (although I don't think the evidence supports complete abstinence).

However, I do believe very strongly in a woman's right to choose what to do with her own body, regardless of how well-informed she is. Sometimes that means women are going to do things that I or others disagree with, but I still believe that the basic principle of personal autonomy is one worth defending.

I accept that this landlady was within her legal rights to refuse to serve this woman, but I get very worried when people start talking about her 'moral rights' to refuse to serve a pregnant woman. IMHO once we start allowing other people to dictate what a pregnant woman may or may not do, we are not very many steps at all from eroding women's rights in favour of the fetus. Perhaps that's what people want?

Good question DaisyMoo

She was so humiliated she went to the papers and told thousands more people about it .

In the USA, restaurants that serve alcohol have signs at the till warning of FAS. Servers will challenge you if you order a galss of wine if you're preggers.

'Would you support a change in the law to give the fetus legal rights which compel a woman to give up smoking, drinking etc and to heed medical advice, including a cesarean section if doctors recommended it?'

An excellent question, Daisy.

If the foetus has all these rights, too, then it goes to follow that abortion, the right to terminate a pregnancy, shouldn't be allowed, either, if you're also not allowed to potentially harm it with alcohol.

Pavlov: of course she went to the papers, it is very very important to kick up a huge fuss when a pregnant woman is treated like a moron or a piece of property. Because pregnant women are PEOPLE and it is up to THEM what they do. Foetuses don't have rights because foetuses are not people until they are born.

Pavlov, perhaps she wanted to raise the profile of this kind of antediluvian misogyny by publicising it? I'm sure she felt humiliated and angry at being treated like this by someone with no medical credentials. My response would be to want to let other women know about it too - it's outrageous.

What is the balance of the academic evidence SGM? I'd be interested to see a review of data from Europe if there is any.

ok, only scanned thread so this may have already been said but a module of my degree is venue licensing and the license holder and the DPS have a social and legal responsibilty to limit alcohol where they feel that the health and wellbeing of the customer is at risk. in fact one of the licensee's objectives is to "protect children and those who are vulnerable to the effects of alcohol" this woman is carrying a child. pregnancy changes your body's responses, therefore she could be seen as vulnerable.

I have often refused to serve customers who i felt would be putting themselves or others at risk by drinking further.

she was refused another drink in line with the liscensing objectives, wheres the problem? nowt to do with "nanny state" everything to do with responsible sale of alcohol.