Why men can't apologise

[MrsMerryHenry]

here

This article really is just a post-it note, isn't it? It just begins to scratch the surface and then 'byeeeee!'.

My DH and I learned about the power of a heartfelt apology on a marriage enrichment course which we did about 2/3 years into our marriage. It revolutionised our conflicts - we learned to recognise the fact that even though we may not have intended to hurt each other by saying xyz, the fact remained that we did hurt each other and the only way to deal with that was to apologise. It really was like 'verbal honey', as Dr Spurs writes.

Somehow my DH has lost the will to do that over the years. We do have a great relationship but we resolve our conflicts far less effectively than we used to. On the few occasions when I'm able to squeeze out an apology from him it's given so perfunctorily that I feel even more enraged than before. I don't think it would be biased of me to say that I do still apologise without being asked, but I long for the days when both of us would do it.

Maybe I'll suggest we do that marriage enrichment course again.

The link doesn't work.

I get really wound up by DH's inability to apologise. What I would like to hear is "Sorry, I know it upsets you when I do X. In future I'll try to avoid the same situation by doing Y." What I actually get is some or all of the following. "It's actually better this way because ..."; "I couldn't help it if the train was delayed (usually used when he left the office at the time he was supposed to arrive somewhere else)"; "You're just making a huge fuss over nothing"; "Look, I've been doing X for you (generally something much less important or not wanted at all by me) and all you do is complain"; "I changed my mind (about a joint decision)". I rarely accept any of his excuses, in fact I get shoutier, so I don't know why he bothers even trying.

My Dh apologises. My son apologises. My Dad did, my brothers do....

I don't really understand what this is about tbh

"I don't think it would be biased of me to say that I do still apologise without being asked, but I long for the days when both of us would do it."

anyone else think this is completely biased and looking to place all blame on another.

fwiw i have seen no difference between the sexes on apologising. if i had to absolutely force a stereotype i'd say women may be a tiny bit more likely to apologise and men a tiny bit more likely to accept one.
but that would be me stretching to make a stereotype for the sake of it. i know both men and women who find it very hard to apologise and i know both men and women who seem to find it very hard to let go of a grudge or perceived slight.

women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/relationships/article5761637.ecehere

Article is pish.

the only person I've met who never ever ever can apologise is my mother. Like so many other things, you can't generalise along gender lines.

Arse

I meant

here

I recognise this scenario.

Getting DH to apologise is like getting blood out of a stone. He will argue that he isn't going to lower himself and that apologising is weak. He has also argued in the past that apologising is "co-dependent"

I wouldn't say that he has never apologised for anything, but I could probably count the amount of times that he has said "sorry" in 7 years of knowing one another on one hand.

However, my DH is a very defensive person, and just because he is like this, I wouldn't assume that "men" as a generic group are!!

Agree that the article was a post-it. More like an essay title: "men don't say sorry - ah well, tsk, men eh? discuss" rather than saying anything particularly helpful!

Thanks for linking it properly, doggie!

Yes, I agree that it's more likely down to personalities and not gender. I think the weakness of the article is that being so short, it doesn't go into enough detail and so doesn't even try to justify its claims that it's a man thing.

What I was posting about was the effect of an apology (or non-apology) in relationships - actually I'm sure this can be applied across all types of relationships, not just romantic ones.

Mayorquimby, I can see how you would see my statement about DH not apologising as being biased, especially given that I haven't detailed any context here, just the aspect of the absent apologies. But if I said my DH was the one leaving the toilet seat up and not me, I'm sure you wouldn't accuse me of being unreasonably biased, would you? . It's just one of those things you become aware of about relationships. As it's been on my mind, it was interesting to read this irritatingly short article about it, and it's made me think about creative ways to deal with it.

Bran, I feel your frustration! But I feel that if I carry on getting more shouty we won't get past shoutiness to a more positive way of handling conflict. Do you feel the same way?

If you come up with any creative ideas, please let us in on them

Wellllll...the only one I can think of so far is booking us on the marriage enrichment course again - though I imagine most DHs would take years of persuasion as they'd probably wrongly assume it was relationship counselling.

The thing they taught us was to say: 'I know it's not your intention to hurt me but when you do x it makes me feel y'. It really, really works because it shows that you're on his side but that you feel hurt. It's also less vengeful than saying 'You've really hurt me' and so an easier pill to swallow (usually).

He also gets to say the same thing to you, though, it's not one-sided. The idea is to enable richer mutual understanding. Then eventually you both apologise to each other for having inadvertently hurt each other. When we used to do it, it worked like a dream.

The marriage enrichment course sounds interesting. Who did you do it with?

It was run by a church, so not sure whether that would be off-putting for you. One thing they insist on is not making it evangelistic; they just want couples (married or not) to develop great relationships. It's a few years since I did it but I think there may have been part of a session in which they talked about the importance of connecting spiritually 'if that's a part of your life'. They also ended each session by saying something like 'If you feel comfortable with it then pray together over what you've been discussing. If you're not comfortable with it, then affirm each other over what you've been discussing'. Apart from that the content was non-religious.

The course took place in central London but I have a feeling that other churches do it, too - with the same non-evangelistic approach.

I've been thinking about this recently and I think one of the reason that all of us are bad at apologising, is because of how we are taught to apologise when we are children.

Basically, we are taught that you have to apologise when you have lost the argument. So apology is a sign of weakness and total defeat, rather than a genuine wish to acknowlege that behaviour was bad. I had a bit of a revelation about this a few months ago when DD (6) came and apologised to me off her own bat, for some bad behaviour. I hadn't even mentioned apologies, but when she came and said how sorry she was, I knew she meant it, she wasn't just saying it because I was threatening to take away a toy or make her miss a social event or something. And I decided I only ever want proper apologies from my kids from now on, not worthless ones that are wrung from them by threats of further punishment. So maybe when they're adults, they'll be able to apologise spontaneously because they recognise they've behaved badly, not as a tactic in an argument. And they won't be inhibited from apologising properly by the fear of loss of face or making themselves look weak.

LittleBella, that's a really intriguing perspective. I'd never thought about it that way before. I'm going to give this some thought. I agree with you that the ideal is to bring up children who understand the true value of genuine apologies, so I'll have to ponder this one.

Have you thought of an alternative 'punishment' (wrong word here, I know) to replace demanding an apology from your kids?

many people see apologising as weak "never explain, never apologise....."

personally, I see it as a sign of strength

I would say I have regretted the times I did not apologise more than the times that I did IYSWIM

Anyfucker, you're showing your interpersonal intelligence now . It amazes me that some people see it as a sign of weakness, as if they somehow think life is a battle in which you must always compete and beat the crap our of your adversaries . Such people are often hellish to live and work with, and it's probably quite useful to see it as a deficiency in an area of intelligence.

Wow. Another gender-stero-typing thingy on MN.
Off the press from last night:

Pan: I want to apologise for saying what I said yesterday. I can see how it may have invited you to feel, but that wasn't why I said it.

MsPan: Thank you. It was difficult to hear from you, but I totally see where you were coming from. I'm sorry for knifing you over-reacting, when I knew there was some truth in it.

etc.

I'm no wee saint, but I and a whole collection of blokes I know have the capacity to do this. So I'd like to shove this title thread where the sun don't shine. With no apology.

Mate of mine was going out with his new belle - they argued and he just kept on apologising. Eventually she demanded "Why are you apologising - it's nothing to do with you!"
In a plaintive voice he just said "You're a pissed-off woman and I'm a bloke, so the intelligent thing is to apologise until I find out what's wrong."

my dh apologises

he also gets a twinkle in his eye and says " i hear what you are saying, i have taken it on board. what i am saying is...."

i can't help but smirk usually when he comes over all drphil

Sorry

Hilarious! Love your pissed-off bloke story! (Though it sounds more like a conflict management strategy than a genuine apology, but that's a discussion for another day ).

Well done to you both for beautifully modelling the way apologies should work. It changes everything, don't you find?

I think most of us agreed above that the gender stereotyping in the article was inappropriate, non?

Although psychologically speaking it is still worth examining the question of whether men are socialised in a way that makes them less likely to apologise than women. Of course, as you've demonstrated above, there are always exceptions, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ask whether there might also be generalisable tendencies.

The most intelligent thing that my Dad ever said to me was "do you want to be right or do you want to be married?".

I'm going to remember that one, MrsTM. Wise words.

Indeed Mrs T. IT does change everything. We diffused together what could have been an incendiary situation and turned it into an extended snogging session.

I'm not utterly againstthe notion that blokes are 'less inclined' to perceive the the need for an apology, or are less inclined to give one. But the generalisations round here often gat a bit irksome.

Also someone was dead right about it not being reserved for romantic attachments. I manage staff in my job and state an apology if/when things don't work out. AND apologising to dd (9) seems to work wonders - she seems to adore it and almost forgets whatthe issue was. And, it probably sets her up to give and accept "I'm sorry" later in life. So get apologising to your children!! It's a wise investment!.

dh seems to see apologies as a form of weakness - VERY reluctant to say sorry and if ever cornered, will give a bad-tempered one while still trying to justify whatever it was he did that was wrong. While I'm happy to say 'sorry' if I've messed up or been nasty.

Maybe a male/female thing for lots of people given that men are supposedly a lot more hung up on status. For dh, I think it may be because his parents had the sort of relationship where they bickered constantly. Bickering was almost the default setting for their relationship.

My parents were worse, had terrible rows and eventually divorced, but that made me much more focused on resolving rows, because I don't want to have that kind of destructive relationship.

yes, both Mrs Ts, though one of them is slightly disguised.....