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So will a conference on anti-semitism really make any difference?

258 replies

YaddaYaddaYadda · 16/02/2009 18:58

I know I've posted a few times about anti-semitism (and I'm sure some people think I should give it a rest) but it's something that's really worrying me at the moment. There's a conference - see here starting today to look at developing strategies to combat the rise in anti-semitism but will it really make any difference? The optimist in me hopes so, the cynic in me doubts it...

OP posts:
FairLadyRantALot · 23/02/2009 23:31

is anglican the same as evangelical-lutheric?

MiTochondrialEve · 23/02/2009 23:32

You have challenged it, though! If the link is removed, the context of your challenge is also removed so people who are interested, learn nothing.

You legitimise it more by engaging with it. We have asked for abusing posts about disabled people we work with to remain on the sites they appear on, as most reasonable people are sickened by them and they learn somehting. That's just my opinion though. You are free to do what you want, of course.

lisalisa · 23/02/2009 23:39

Racism needs to be removed. Full stop. You cannot engage wtih it or reason with it. Hence a zero tolerance policy.

AtheneNoctua · 24/02/2009 00:15

No Anglican is not the same as evangelical-lutheric. Anglican is the Church of England, Episcopal church (in th eUS), Church of Ireland, and probably more but it's late and I'm tired and can't thin kof them.

onagar · 24/02/2009 03:06

I'm not very impressed with that site and I don't agree with much of it, but since it seems to have a theme that jewish people can't cope with people disagreeing with them I find it ironic that people want the link removed.

I guess the blogger got that one right then.

Of course it's not just jewish people is it. Most if not all religious groups want disagreement outlawed. "Free speech on condition that you agree with me", "you can have opinions, but they must be the right ones"

I also think it's wonderful to see the peace and love which everyone tells me religion is all about being expressed so clearly here between Muslims and Jews.

MiTochondrialEve · 24/02/2009 09:12

Onager, that is incredibly disengenuous. If you look back on this thread you will see Shera and Donnie using the same "emotional violence" and abuse of PC'ness, as described by the blogger as a Jewish problem, to shut down debate.

That piece is certainly boardering on racist in my opinion. I am happy at people having the right to offend. I very often get onto fights on her defending that right. But the language used by the blogger (never mind her logic) is incredibly dodgy. I think most people will see that.

MiTochondrialEve · 24/02/2009 09:48

It is certainly the closest this thread has come to racism. It wasn;t so long ago that Shera was raising an eyebrow to words like 'them' and 'us' and then she posts a link to this.

Lets turn some of those statements on theor head. Becasue if they are 'true' for Jews, they are also 'true' for Muslims.

"A Muslim in Gaza, even a child, is raised to accept a very heavy sense of personal responsibility that far exceeds anyone else's normal sense of personal responsibility. It creates a neurotic personality who is always feeling guilty and thus is too weak to stand up to Islamist criminal behavior and the comical, obviously non-factual Islamist ideology."

"Palestinian Muslims are actually being trained since childhood to interact with non-Muslims in a deceitful and arrogant manner...This is actually deliberate, wicked, planned behavior motivated by a narcissistic self-righteous fury."

"Mainstream gullible Muslims and their dishrag friends tend to naively believe anything racist against Jews and Israelis"

And as we have seen a lot on this thread;
"So many moderate muslims fall into this trap and start doing the work of the Islamisst, attacking people if they deviate from political correctness. If we could focus on the emotional violence (and direct violence and intimidation) of Islamist advocacy techniques we might be able to empower moderate Muslims to stand up to the psycho Islamists without enduring quite as much emotional pain"

Here is a real corker

"But the Muslim doesn?t care how much he or she hurts others. Muslims only care about what's good for the Muslims."

I can imagine Shera going into paroxysms at that one! Would they be justified? But it gets worse;

"The world needs to intervene to save Muslims from their murderous selves, and to save Isreal.

...Come on now. Try to keep an open mind.

Now for action

"What is possible and in fact quite easy is to find a way to deal with Islamist extremists in our local area, especially those who are involved in the organizational structures of Islamist organized racism.

Obviously, prosecuting Islamists organizations also requires convincing the establishment to define Islamism as a criminal ideology, like we do Nazism, and going after the leadership."

However, meanwhile, there should be a way for ordinary people to wear down ordinary Muslims and their leadership by engaging them in arguments, and so on. The nicey nice "interfaith dialogue" routine is not working to help the situation as it just teaches Muslims to be friends with Jews never mentioning Islamisms crimes against humanity.

(Funny, isn't this the mistake you are making Shera, spending 20 quid to "taking us all to a conference between a rabbi and a muslim, as well as partaking in jewish /arab dialogue (very very contructive might i add) at university." So now I'm confused, are you about to drop this "nicey nice interfaith dialogue"?

"Obviously, coming up against a Muslim narcissist is always a painful experience and yet - as with a child molester - you have to intervene."

MiTochondrialEve · 24/02/2009 09:49

I'll stop there but there is much more. I hope you get the point of this exercise.

justaboutindisguise · 24/02/2009 09:50

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MiTochondrialEve · 24/02/2009 09:56

Well so you've found another racist. Has anyone posted a link on this thread to those blogs on this thread in order to 'sort out your own backl yard' simple answer. No

I fear youy are fallcommiting the fallacy the (very venerable and talented) Karen Armstrong makes. You are looking through the world in rose coloured specs. You are not without critical faculty Rev. I would respectfully suggest you look at the motives of posting that link and think about if you want to defend it in the interests of general harmony. Becasue there is another road to hell paved with good intentions.

justaboutindisguise · 24/02/2009 10:03

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justaboutindisguise · 24/02/2009 10:05

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lisalisa · 24/02/2009 10:06

MiT - I don't know who you are and have not come across you much on MN in the 8 yrs that I've been here but I am very impressed with your recent posts and grateful to you especially for your post of 09:48. You are putting the case far more eloquently than I - presumably because it is not directed at you and your people and you can be more objective. Still seething at this this morning and waiting on MN.....

[boat emoticon]

MiTochondrialEve · 24/02/2009 10:08

You are intergrating too much clutrtal theory into your personal philopsphy. The 'other' is a construct for textual discourse, not a reality.

MiTochondrialEve · 24/02/2009 10:16

And if you are so sensitive to structuralist discourse, I am quite alarmed that the direct allusion to Jews (or Muslims) to child molesters would not give you pause.

sherazade · 24/02/2009 10:19

omg to be truthful, i just saw that this was a bit of criticism of racism in the jewish community, made by a member of the jewish community. i apologise for having caued so much offence and really should have read it very carefully before linking it. I HAVE asked mnet to remove the link. i know it may be a bit late for an apology though.. on the other hand, if anyone wants to post a similar kind of blog made by a muslim proving a critique of muslims and the muslim community, feel free to do so.

sherazade · 24/02/2009 10:23

oh and to emphasise that just because i linked it, why must it mean that i endorse or suscribe those views??

justaboutindisguise · 24/02/2009 10:24

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MiTochondrialEve · 24/02/2009 10:25

Thanks Shera. It just shows it pays to read things throughly.

I really wouldn't want to post any kind of similar inflammatory stuff. The internet is full of self published blogs and bloggers

justaboutindisguise · 24/02/2009 10:27

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MiTochondrialEve · 24/02/2009 10:28

Because you said
"If you want to fight racism and ethnic nationalism, start in your own backyard." and them linked to a blog that was encourageing racism and nationaoism in back yards.

Yes, you didn;t read it properly. You've said you don't endorse those views clearly now. Confusion over, hopefully

TaylorTime · 24/02/2009 10:32

You mean Irshad Manji, Justa?

TaylorTime · 24/02/2009 10:32

x-post, you've remembered

justaboutindisguise · 24/02/2009 10:42

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sherazade · 24/02/2009 10:43

If i endorsed those views, why would i start out with very good intentions to contribute positively to a thread on tackling anti semitism? things got muddled and sidetracked along the way, but if you read my first few posts, i spoke about my own background that was one of respect and tolerance towards jews, and looking for similarities rather than differences. Lisalisa might have shrugged these off as being useless and gave her reasons, but in MY experience, MY context they haven't been useless. Small steps count and if we keep on looking at the bigger picture as evidence of our failure and the futility of discourse, then we will never combat any kind of racism.

i DID Attend the conference on sat and there were two jewish speakers there, a reverend and a sheikh. There was a fantastic atmosphere (although..mind you.. i did have to spend alot of time in the foyer to stop dd2, age2, from running outside ) and again the evening was very positive. no we might not be able to stop muslims and jews killing each other in other parts of the world right now, but we CAN better our own communities.

the blog is inflammatory i agree, and it was a mistake to link it. I didn't read it as thoroughly as i should have done.We all make mistakes and i am always the first to admit mine . I am waiting for a reply from mnet. I re-emphasise that i do not hold the opinions of the blogger, I merely posted to provide a different perspective of self-critique which I felt was absent from the thread.BUT Lets make it very very clear that, if someone perceives something as racist, then i will retract it, despite my non racist intentions. I don't want anyone feeling that I have offended them racially as it weighs far too heavily on my conscience and isn't worth it.