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So will a conference on anti-semitism really make any difference?

258 replies

YaddaYaddaYadda · 16/02/2009 18:58

I know I've posted a few times about anti-semitism (and I'm sure some people think I should give it a rest) but it's something that's really worrying me at the moment. There's a conference - see here starting today to look at developing strategies to combat the rise in anti-semitism but will it really make any difference? The optimist in me hopes so, the cynic in me doubts it...

OP posts:
justaboutindisguise · 22/02/2009 19:17

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WinkyWinkola · 22/02/2009 20:02

Diplomacy Queen strikes again. Thanks, Justabout.

I don't think there's anyone on here that wants anyone to be attacked because of their religion, colour, creed etc.

And I wish it were so easy to isolate race hate among one particular group.

The NF were a very strong presence when I started high school (1985) but they just seemed to disappear after the first year. It was weird actually, looking back, how they just seemed to vanish especially after the big fights on the football fields between black boys and the NF crew. Perhaps it was because the school sold the playing fields and they didn't have anywhere to fight anymore. But more likely they regrouped and re-emerged as BNP.

MiTochondrialEve · 22/02/2009 20:03

Whatrever the relevence to my imput in this discussion, it still needs to be stated that Donnie and Shera have stooped to some very dubious stratergies and have slandered people yet failed to give these people the right of reply to charges of racism. I'd like to think that they could learn to take a step back from thinking the very worst of their fellow mumsnetters, even if they are 'disgusted' by them. The disgust is their personal issue.

I have posted links and made references to instances where I have defended Muslims on MN. These have been wholey ignored and instead I've been criticised for swearing. It is unbelievable lame and - I'll say it again - cowardly. Just know that if you are going to throw such a label as 'racist' at someone, you'd better be able and prepared to prove it from now on. Becasue such slanders bring MN into disrepute.

sherazade · 22/02/2009 20:19
  1. Lisalisa made a racist slur towards me in another thread. i am loathe to bring it up again, but mit just wont let go of her point that those people have not been given 'right of reply'. A reply was asked for regarding that comment , by the one who made it, very simply putforward, none was given, and the poster has had a few weeks to reply but has never done so.
  1. I did not say that I was disgusted by other mumsnetters personally at all, as you keep on insisting mit. I said that the allusion to hijab as oppression, disgusts me, beause it betrays a deep prejudice OR ignorance/naievety (just as lisa lisa said those deflecting antisemitism are liars or naieve).
  1. I have not criticised you personally, for swearing. I have though, questioned whether swearing was a constructive, meaningful, and tolerant form of debate. Instead of a contructive/meaningful reply, I got more swearing.

I have not called anyone names. I have not said that anyone was racist, I said that islamaphobic sentiment has been expressed.

Mit, i do not want to make enemies with you. If you have defended muslims in the past, I thank you personally for it and do not wish to bear hard feelings towards you. I do wish you would stop saying that 'we disgust you' because i have NOT said anywhere that you or any other mumsnetter disgusts me.

MiTochondrialEve · 22/02/2009 22:32

Well this is all a dogs breakfast now anyway, and it's all over all our faces. Lets just hope somebody got somehting out of it. The attrition that is manifest in the conflict between Gaza and Israel seems all too easily to seap into debates.

I personally cannot abide political correctness when it is used to shut people up.

But just for the record - It was Donnie who made a specific accusaion of racism, not you. Personally, I have not spied any anti- Islamic sentiment on here - but I haven'[t read every post. You didn;t say any MNnetter disgusted you, sorry. But also Pristina didn't make the allusion to the Hijab and oppression - as far as I am aware, she said "Personally, I'm not in favour of religious dress especially as it can often be used as an excuse to oppress women." That's a personal opinion (qualified as such and also a general one not specific to the hijab). Even so, it might offend you that some people do make that allusion - many Muslim women do. But the question of whether women being veiled liberates or oppresses them is very important, IMHO - as with all other religions prescriptions, Islamic or Jewish. But that's all housekeeping. Things have gotten out of hand. I will gladly step back and learn what I can from the encounter.

I have no wish to make enemies either - I am hopeless at holding grudges too - but PC'ness really gets my goat, maybe all the more becasue I was a fervent fan of it at first, before it turned to the dark side...

MiTochondrialEve · 22/02/2009 22:35

This is a bit vague - Even so, it might offend you that some people do make that allusion - many Muslim women do (also make that allusion and question the real utility of veiling, I mean)

lisalisa · 23/02/2009 00:41

Sherazade - the muslim cleric is yousuf al qawardi but he is not the only one. He is just the latest example. There are plenty of Muslim clerics who are anti semitic and to deny it is either naive or just plain disingenious (at the most generous).

What about the islamic school in the heart of the west end a few years ago whose principal finally left and spoke out about the hateful ( there is no other way to describe it ) books that the kids were learning from depicting Jews as pigs adn the rest of the " non believers" ( i.e western world) as monkeys?

I am not prepared to give you that the Koran does not preach anti semitism. I am aware ( as you must be ) of the hadith that the final war will be between teh Jews and the Muslims and that the Muslims will kill all the jews apart from one who is hiding behind a stone. The stone then calls out " oh believer , the infidel Jew ( or words to that effect) is here - come kill him" and the Muslim does . What about the Koranic story of the Jewwess who poisoned Muhammad? It is therefore in my view inherent and endemic in Islam this hatred for the Jew.

I will give you that many moderate Muslims do not hold with this hadith and try , in the modern world, to participate in inter faith forums and bridge the gap but it fails when given any real test. For example, the Muslim Council of Britain refused to join the other faiths at a Holocaust Remebrance Day event at which the other faiths were all represented this year in "protest" at Gaza? Why? Are the two interrelated somehow? Do the Jews who died innocently at the hands of the Nazi scourge not merit remembrance and the minute's silence accorded to them due to world events now? What link have these events other than that they both involve Jews? The MCB particupated in 2007 due to pressure but not until after capitulating in their fight to have Holocaust REmembrance Day de judaised and turned into a "victims of racism day">? Why ? Is it so painful for them to attend a day commemorating Jewishloss ( not any other loss ) that in order to be able to stomach it they have to turn it into something totally unrelated to Jews?

For an exampole of the type of Muslim attitudes towards Jews just read www.ummah.com/forum. There was a thread recently by an israeli who posted tryign to explore avenues for peace on there. The anti semitism ( not anti isreal - that much is a given - I am talking real hard core anti semitims quoting from protocols of elders of zion and expressing wishes for hitler to continue work and hamas sends jews to gas type screams) was absolutely shocking. It is also an eye opener. The website carries many , many threads wishing the believers well in their Jihad in Bangladesh, Afghanistan and the Western World.

There are many examples of muslim anti semitism. Here are just two.
1 The Prime Ministger of Malaysia in 2003 informed the world that "Jews rule the world by proxy. They get others to die for them".He received a standing ovation for this statement from all 57 Muslim countries represented.

2 President Bashar al Assad of Syria - this little ditty " Jews try to kill the principles of all world religions like they betrayed Jesus Christ".

It is no accident that the old Czarist Forgery the Protocols of the elders of Zion is reprinted in new eidtions yearly in Iran, Syria , Egypt and others the only place where its sales flourish.

Indeed with the state sponsered insults, charecatures, sporadic voilence and propaganda slurs the situation is beginning to resemble 1930's Germany - a situation preparing the people for the murder that followed.

At heart I try to be an optimist ( I have a background in left wing politics which installs this into you) but I fear my optimism is misplaced and i am not prepared to be and will not be a victim of my own stupidity ultimately as were the Jews in 1939 Germany who fervently believed that their well educated and mannered neighbours would not harm them.

Kate1956 - I am afriad that I simply do not understand your first post or its meaning. Your last post mentining that the NF called teh SWP a " conspiracy of Jews" did make give me a grim smile. Its my point all over - everything bad is blamed on teh jews - the current credit crunch, the recession, immigration, emigration ( the brain drain) , socialism, communism and facism - oh and apartheid too. In fact 9/11 was called a jewish conspiracy too ( by the muslims ) - amazing that one . Apparantly it was engineered by the "zionists" who called to alert the Jews in the twin towers not to go to work that day. It would be funny were it not so sobering.

Sherazade goat - I did not make a "racist slur" on another thread. I said "sherazade and those of her ilk". Where is the racism in that ? I may have been implying that you are hot headed, impetuous, factually incorrect or ignorant. All completely different comments/accusations. But you choose to make it racist.

And as a complete sidesweep I do read fairly widely about Islam and sherazade fwiw have a lot of respect for some of hte basic tenets for e.g. modesty finding them quite similar to my religion. Especially re hijab etc - we also have concepts of modesty and hair covering.

In fact - sigh- if a few of us women could only sit down and thrash things out I think we'd have far more in common than we do apart.

justaboutindisguise · 23/02/2009 09:17

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justaboutindisguise · 23/02/2009 09:18

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MiTochondrialEve · 23/02/2009 09:33

The difference is when fundamentalist christians begin interpreting the bible literally they are sidelined. ALso, since we stopped literally interpreting the Bible, it's kind of lost its attraction to young men with too much energy and an explosion of hormones looking for some cathartic outlet. As far as I am aware, pious (in the non derogatory sense), mosque attending Muslims do not 'interpret' the Koran themselves, it is the word of God - the literal word of god, and it would be blasphomous for them to question it. I guess it will all demeond on the Muslim scholar who preeches in your Mosque and if he is sympathetic to the tenets of Muslim Brotherhood.

There is no equation between the Bible and Koran, becasue the bible is only a collection of texts, not the word of god.

MiTochondrialEve · 23/02/2009 09:39

In a way, I'd imagine the christian church envies the way Islam attracts young men - I wonder if there is a corrolation in that they are attracted becasue Islam still has it't 'teeth' as it were, where christianity has all but been castrated. If that is the case (tho one of many of course) it least behoves Islam to moderate itself. Churches/religions have historically been institutions for building armies. The allusion to war, jihad, the crusades, Islam under 'attack'; this language coiuld well be a conscious strategy to appeal to young men and, along with family tradition, honour and the onus on being part of the 'tribe' works well. Islam is after all, the fastest growing religion in the world.

justaboutindisguise · 23/02/2009 09:40

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MiTochondrialEve · 23/02/2009 09:58

Of course they are 'capable'. I never said they were incapable of thinking anyway they want.

StewieGriffinsMom · 23/02/2009 10:25

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lisalisa · 23/02/2009 10:27

rev - I think the fundamental difference between teh koran and say the Old and new testaments is that in old and new testaments the end of hte world and therefore eternal peace etc does not depend on the killing of Jews for it. According to that hadith in the koran it does. Therefore anti semtitism must to an extent be in bred there.

MiTochondrialEve · 23/02/2009 10:40

Sounds like another example of the corruption of politica correctness Stewiesmum. Totally agree that it was a crime against humanity - as was 9/11 as are use of phosperous bombs on civilians in Palestine - no nation or religion has the monopoly on morality. It might be off topic, but peoples (our?) obsession with 'the problem' instead of 'the solution' seems to simply feed the maw not starve it

donnie · 23/02/2009 12:10

"no nation or religion has the monopoly on morality""

I agree.

Pristina · 23/02/2009 13:06

And of course to state the obvious, the Holocaust was committed by Christian against Jew, not by Muslims.

AtheneNoctua · 23/02/2009 14:06

Can I just clarify: Hitler was a Catholic, not an Anglican.

justaboutindisguise · 23/02/2009 14:28

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AtheneNoctua · 23/02/2009 14:32

Just so long as we are agreed that he was not Anglican.

donnie · 23/02/2009 14:49

actually - I thought Hitler was a devout atheist ? surely that would suggest his anti semitism was of a racial and not religious type.

justaboutindisguise · 23/02/2009 15:03

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Pristina · 23/02/2009 15:35

I thought Hitler was a Catholic convert (and a vegetarian oddly).

StewieGriffinsMom · 23/02/2009 15:51

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