So will a conference on anti-semitism really make any difference?

[YaddaYaddaYadda]

I know I've posted a few times about anti-semitism (and I'm sure some people think I should give it a rest) but it's something that's really worrying me at the moment. There's a conference - see here starting today to look at developing strategies to combat the rise in anti-semitism but will it really make any difference? The optimist in me hopes so, the cynic in me doubts it...

I won't put my religion down on the census just in case winky! I'm sorry you feel so unsafe Lisa. I've found that I encountered more direct anti-semitism when young growing up in a Jewish area of a big city, but more snidey comments at work in a smaller city with a less diverse population.

I encountered quite a lot of snidey comments whilst working at a top 20 law firm in city - nothing direct you understand - just snide comments whenever there was a bit of trouble involving Israel - hten that seemed to bring them to the fore. We had one big client involved very directly in the arab world whom i was asked not to service!

Gosh, Lisa, what did you say?

"Okay, I understand. Whatever is best for the firm's business."

"Yes, yes. Of course. I understand some people don't like jews. It's contageous afterall"

"Feck of you twit. See you in tribunal."

The thing that surprises me about the recent events in Gaza and British perception is that such a huge number of people have have rallied to the Palestinian side as if the whole thing is black and white and big bad Israel is to blame. I have no particular ties to either side. But, I can't believe so many people see this as all Israel's fault. Now, I don't think Israel is blamesless. But neither is Palestine.

And I do think that if I was Jewish, I would be scared about the rise of support (almost blind support) for Palastine and Hamas in the British public.

Athene!

It was done every so subtily by shifting me to different work areas and just "exploring" the possible cultural disadvatnages of my working for that client. To be very honest, knownig where much of their profit is channelled means that I was very glad not to have to work for them. i would have found it challenging to say the least , if not completely self defeating , to have to work on profit making ventures for them knowing that those profits were going to support those either engaged in "my" destruction or very interested in bringing it about.

It brings to mind a corp finanace magic circle deal I worked on in 1993 invovling the sale of a company with subsids in the Middle East. One of the nicer documents we had to examine were the israel boycott certificates!! I declined to act any further on the grounds of personal/religious grounds.

And on Israel/Palestine, it never ceases to amaze me how it can bring out thte screaming masses on behalf of the palestinians whilst the same crowds are strangely absent for Rowanda and other such places. It amazes me yet further that the same palestinian citizens they are on the streets screaming support for were also on the streets in September 2001 screaming not for them but in support of the terrorists who had brutally cut down "their" lives or those whom they loved ( my "their" being the westerners). It just beggars belief really.

Do you know I just have to comment here because it is exactly this sort of scaremongering that makes people feel unsafe.

Lets be absolutely clear here that it is way more dangerous to be a palestinian in gaza than it is to be jewish here - and I speak as someone jewish! But everytime there is criticism of israel everything gets turned around to "the oldest racism" - what a crock. While it is clear that anti-semitic attacks are on the rise we have crappy arguments that say the only solution is to run to israel - once again exonerating israel for its disgusting racist policies.

I would like to ask the people on this thread who think that the answer to anti-semiticism is to flee to israel whether you think that black people should flee to africa and muslims who suffer islamophobia should flee to the middle east? - it is an outrageous idea that people cannot live together. Frankly the best way to defeat racism of any sort is to unite together - unfortunately people who are zionists are unable to do this!

kate, I think you're missing the point that black and muslim people have numerous places around the world that offer some degree of refuge in the sense of having people of the same ethnicity/race/religion/colour, who can hopefully offer support if the worst happens. The only safe haven for Jewish people, where they have control, is Israel.

lisalisa, I am also regularly amazed by how other "fascist", "oppressive" situations around the world are ignored by liberal westerners who seem to focus all their energies on Israel/Palestine.

Quite honestly if you think that israel is a safe place for jews (or anyone else actually) you're clearly living in a different world from me. I think it's racist in the extreme to assume that there are 'areas' for varying sets of people depending on their 'ethnicity', colour etc. It's also extremely depressing that people on this site clearly have a view of people belonging with 'their own kind' - racism is not something inherent in babies when they're born and it can be fought!

And as for focusing on israel its a bit of a joke really as its probably only israel than can get away with dropping white phospherus on children (did you know it burns through to the bones) without being roundly condemned by the world, also only israel that gets away with breaking quite so many UN resolutions over the past 50-60 years with no comeback.

The reason for the interest at the moment is because of what happened in gaza - an atrocity actually. Its also pretty disingenuous to spout rubbish about people not being interested in other regions of the world - some of us have been protesting against wars for a long time.

And I do note the creeping assertions that all palestinians are really terrorists in some of the posters above - next thing we'll be hearing that they deserved it really!

I had the delights of growing up in the 70 and 80s on a council estate being called a fucking Paki cunt on a daily basis. Is that better or worse than anti Jewish sentiment?

(And in point of fact my dad is Indian - not Pakistani.)

Racism is alive and kicking in the UK. In every form. Including Jewish racism against non Jews. My dear friend - a non Jew - who has married a Jewish man has been treated like a piece of shit and her husband ostracised for marrying out. How racist is that?

A conference addressing one form if racism is IMO utterly pointless. A conference addressing ALL forms of racism is not pointless.

Where have people talked about fleeing to Israel for safety? I remember fleeing, but the part about Israel bein the destination. Maybe I missed it.

Kate, can you elaborate on this statement? Why are Zionists unable to do this?

"Frankly the best way to defeat racism of any sort is to unite together - unfortunately people who are zionists are unable to do this! "

Because the basic and fundamental tenet of zionism is that racism is inherent in non-jews and therefore that jews because they are jews will always suffer racism - for origins of zionism see hertzl, weizmann etc who are quite blatent about this. Political zionism is a relatively new phenomenon spanning the last 150 years or so and always stood in opposition to uniting with others to fight all kinds of racism.

For extremely good history of israel avi shlaim 'the iron wall' is pretty good.

Also www.gush-shalom.org/archives/article312.html an article by a pro-israeli about how hysteria can arise about anti-semiticism and why is interesting - this is on the site 'jews for justice for palestinians' which people might also find interesting.

as far as I understand it Zionism is exclusive: it excludes all non-Jews. That makes it intrinsically racist IMO. Maybe someone would care to explain it in different terms.

So, who are the Zionists then? Are we talking about some small elite of Iraeli society? Some terrorist faction who goes round bambing people who are not Jewish? Are they average Joe Jewish people in London?

I suppose at the core of all religeons it the belief that ther own religeon is the only true one. And that of course include Christianity. It becomes a problem when your attempts to convert others involves violence. Or when you think those who do not subscribe to your religeon are somehow less worthy of basic human rights... things like the right to life.

I see anti-semitism most days (not Jewish but live in a strongly Jewish area). Everything from pointed comments, through verbal abuse to physical attacks . It's extraordinarily ingrained in British life - try reading any novel set in the first half of the century for evidence.

for a v intersting perspective on (orthodox) Jewish life, I can't recommend this highly enough:

theshaigetz.blogspot.com/

My non expert understanding of Zionism is that it is essentially about refuge and safety.

Of course, I agree all forms of racism are awful for the victim. No one deserves to be called Paki or Yid, or to go about in fear that they will be abused due to their appearance.

I just attempted to read that link effiperrine but since it refers to 'slant eyed people' and says 'I belong to the army of God' it's a bit hard to take it seriously. Is it a joke or something? what exactly did you link it for?

No zionists are not some elite of israeli society - the most influential zionist in recent years has been ol george w bush and you can bet that his zionism is nothing to do with refuge and safety and everything to do with making sure that the usa has an ally in the oil rich middle east.

In fact the whole history of political zionism is well documented to be linked inextricably with western imperialism - starting with hertzl who makes it clear that imperial connections are essential and being carried on by ben-gurion to the present day.

Didn't bother to read the link but agree with donnie that zionism is intrinsically racist and that is why so many jewish people outside of israel object to the israeli state or pro-zionists purporting to speak in their name.

George Bush is a zionist?

For goodness sake I mistakenly thought this was going to be an intelligent and informative debate.

Once again the original point of a thread has been veered away from. This is about whether a conference will make a difference to the rise in anti-Semitism not yet another thread attacking Israel. If you want to discuss the ethics of Zionism go do it somewhere else.

And I am sick of people turning prejudice into a competition. Be it black, Jewish, muslim or whatever. All prejudice is vile. But prejudices arise from different things and so probably each type needs to be addressed separately.

Kate noone mentioned about running to Israel, you have totally turned this thread around to something entirely different.

Actually the point of the thread has not been veered away from at all. The original post was about fighting anti-semiticism - since the implications from many posts above are that anti-semiticism is something that cannot be eradicated I think I am entitled to disagree particularly when people start talking about leaving due to racism. How exactly did these posters contribute to combatting anti-semiticism than?

donnie: I didn't say I agreed with it, but that it offers an interesting perspective on Hassidic Jewish life from the inside - knowledge is an important part of combating irrational prejudice, surely?

There has been a massive rise in anti-semitism on the continent Onagar, and sadly it does corrolate with a rise in muslim immigration.

Effie - not trying to be difficult here but I still don't get your point. Whose irrational prejudice are you talking about?

This might be an intersting read for those wanting to hear the other side of the story for a change - and by that I just mean we read acres of anti-Israel stuff in the press, so this kids of evens things up - if what you're after is an understanding of both sides

My DP is Jewish, as are my DSSs. We live in a very Jewish area of Paris (upper/middle class).

My DP, who doesn't complain of anti-Semitism in a big way and thinks that the benefits of belonging to the Jewish community outweigh the inconveniences, gets increasingly angered by the behaviour of less liberal Jewish groups in our area. In his opinion, wearing a kippah to go about your daily life and congregating en masse in public places on Jewish holidays ie very public displays of Judaism is inviting anti-Semitism.