really not sure what to think of this, I mean will the baby live?

[Saint2shoes]

here

I remember reading about conjoined twins Chang and Eng, who lived in the 19th century (and gave us the term 'Siamese twins', as they were from what was then Siam). At least one of them got married and went on to have children! I do wonder what it must have been like for the other twin whilst his brother was having sex. Would you just shut your eyes and ignore it, or would you shout encouragement from the sidelines?

mind in gutter

golly, the very best of luck to all of them. I'm one who would never abort under any circumstances (no, tmmj, not even if I would die and leave my other children motherless), and I really hope this all ends as well as possible for them.

I have a friend who found out she had skin cancer shortly before finding out she was pg with her DS (3rd child, totally unplanned), she opted (against medical advice) to delay treatment for her cancer and have the baby rather than terminate.

"Clump of cells" - well that's your opinioin, personally in that scan (which even if someone elses' estimate of 9/10 weeks is correct) I can see what most definitely looks like two heads..........

Ah, well, if we're going to do the 'clump of cells', I don't really know what could possibly be confirmed as life-threatening at the first few days of pregnancy stage, which is the only time the phrase really fits.

But, given that I believe life begins at conception, and therefore the child within my womb would be just as much my child as the ones who made it to the outside, I would not be willing to choose between them, tbh. Given that I'd willingly throw myself in front of a bus for any of my current children, it would be astonishingly hypocritical of me, who claims to be 100% pro-life, to say that the only circumstance in which I'd have an abortion is if I might die instead.

The heart of an embryo starts to beat 22 days after conception. That is, at 5 weeks of pregnancy.

There is no way that there is a second heart there if (1) it can't be seen at this stage, and (2) it is not beating.

I don't know what some people here think hearts suddenly appear and start to beat after 8 weeks. Wishful thinking?

soory Kay but that is barking imho...

Ah well, babybaby, I've been called worse.

so it's it's a clump of cells - how come it can have a heart and heartbeat

FAQ - I hope your friend survives. It is quite foolish brave to choose to be pregnant when diagnosed with cancer. Not just because treatment is postponed. With all the raging hormones and suppressed immunity, pregnancy is party time for cancerous cells, and even for benign moles, which tend to grow.

yes she's fighting fit now - her DS is about to turn 8yrs old - so loong time ago.

It is a pulsating clump of cells (not my term by the way). That is almost exactly how the embryo was described on ultrasound result sheet when I had a 'confirmation' scan when about 6 weeks pregnant with DD.

It's not barking

It comes up time and again on here

baby or cells- which term you prefer prett much defines your standpoint and I admire anyone who has the strength of their convictions in these debates, regardless (to a major but not exclusive) extent of what that view is.

and she didn't exactly choose to get pregnant - they were quite happy with their two girls .

She did go to her termination appointment twice, but after not being able to go through with it the 2nd time decided to keep him.

Didn't you ever have an ultrasound that early? Here in France all pregnancies are 'confirmed' by a scan the first time go to doctor saying you are pregnant.

What you see is a teensy pulsating blob. It already has a heartbeat.

but earlier down you said the heart - so either it has a heart that is beating or it doesn't? And how did they know the baby has 2 heads if it's just a "clump"???

Actually - forget it - we'll never agree on this one. I'm a pro-life for myself, pro-choice for anyone else person, life begins at conception blah blah blah. I'm not going to change your mind, you're not going to change mine.........and I have boxes to pack

I didn't say she chose to get pregnant. I said she chose to be pregnant after being diagnosed with cancer. It was a big risk she took.

ultrasounds are at 12-14 weeks in this country unless private or specific needs (eg IVF).... some places dont do dating scans at all ~(didnt with ds2) so none until 20 weeks

Hey, I said "clump" because you said "clump". I was quoting you. It is not my term.

I didn't say there is no heart. I just said you don't see it on the scan (or I didn't) because the embryo was so tiny. Just a few milimeters in diameter. It looked like a blob.

no I said "clump" because TMMJ did

Take my word or it, then. When you do an ultrasound scan at about 6 weeks, there is a heartbeat.

I can dig out my first scan and write what it says there, if anyone's interested.

I'm guessing they know the has two heads and one body because this poor woman's embryo is 7-8 weeks, where body, head, and even organs are visible on an ultrasound scan. I recently had one at 8 weeks, and all these were clearly visible. (I have the pictures, if anyone is interested)

I was talking at 5 weeks only to show how early heart starts beating and that it is a fantasy to expect a "second heart" to start beating after this point in her pregnancy. Especially a phantom heart that doesn't show in scans

so if the organs are visible how come the "experts" have been quote as saying it's too early to know which organs they share (which in my mind says they don't yet know how many of each organ there are?)

this is so sad, a baby that has two heads and one heart, does not have a good chance of surviving, the heart will not be able to cope with the extra blood supply to the second brain,it will put too big a strain on the wee one.the best senario is that one of the brains is malformed and then the extra head can be removed.the baby would at least have a slightly better chance then.

I'll be honest I am really torn on this one.

I would absolutely not terminate a pregnancy for downs or any other disability that could be detected in utero that was not incompatible with life.

But I think that incompatible with life is different. If it is absolutely certain that a baby will die within minutes of birth then in reality the only reason a mother is going through a pregnancy is for their benefit.

Is it right to go through a pregnancy, allow the baby to develop, put it through the trauma of childbirth (because childbirth is traumatic for the baby), only for it to die what could potentially be a painful death?

I'm not talking weeks or months or a limited life of a few years here - I am talking minutes or hours. That baby is not going to have a wonderful life for those few minutes in which it is alive.

And I personally think that keeping a baby until birth just so you can hold it while it dies is wrong and selfish.

I think the baby should come first, and I think that in a case where certain death can be detected early on then the humane thing to do is to terminate the pregnancy while the baby is still unable to feel pain.

Obviously that is just my opinion, but I personally could not put my child through birth only so I could have the experience of watching him/her die. sorry.