Sorry but the war in Gaza does not justify anti-semitic abuse or placards with swastikas on!

[YaddaYaddaYadda]

I've just spoken to a friend who went on the march in London today and feel physically sick at what she told me about some of the anti-semitic comments and chants she heard. She also told me about people carrying home made placards with swastikas intertwined with a star of david. I know people feel very strongly but how is this level of racial hatred justified??

No. Nanatucket. I think the Israelis would be targeting anyone who was trying to 'wipe them off the map'. And, really, wouldn't you?

It is Hamas who have called for the murder of Jews. If you can show me a link showing Israel calling for the destruction of Muslims I'd like to see it.

Actaully bubble it does work. sadly.

I can get the figures if you insist, I have them and there were produced on another thread yesterday.

The past two weeks we are talking 800 times as many Palestinain families suffering, and in the past 9 years we are talking at least 10 times as many Palestinans suffering often more.

This includes all deaths on both sides.

Actually I will get the stats as I'm quite shocked you don't know this.

"How many Jews killed in thr past two weeks?" It's not a timeline though is it?

How many americans were killed on 9/11? approximately 5000 wasn't it? all in one day. Now how many innocent iraqi's and Afghan citizens have been killed since. more? less? or is that less relevant because they've been killed over a period of years as opposed to all those innocent americans who were killed on that one day?

Here you go:

800 Palestinans killed in past 2 weeks.
13 israelis, 3 by own fire.

Sine 2000:

4,867 Palestinains killed.
1,062 Israelis

123 Israeli children killed.
1,050 Plaestinian children.

8,341 israelis injured.
33,034 Plaestinains injured.

18,147 Palestinian homes demolished by Israelis.
0 Israeli homes demolished by Plestinians.

223 Israeli Illegal settlemsnts on Palestiniand land.
0 illegal palestinin settlemsnts.

65 UN resolutions aimed at Israel.
0 aimed at Palestimne.

10,756 Plestinian politiacl prisoners held by Israelis.
1 held by Palestinins.

6.8million dollars a day donated to Israel by the USA.
0.3 million dollars a day from US to Palestine.

Feel free to change the figures if anyone finds more up to date figures, I am sure the overall story it tells will not alter.

Each and very death in this conflict is wrong and targic, I agree with that whole heartedly.

But it's hardly a fair fight is it?

Wannabe look at the timeline.

Actaully I am very shocked that some arguing on here seem to presume there is some equivalnec in the deaths and suffering and were unaware of these figures.

Peopel seem to imagine that the Palestinians cause just as many Israeli deaths. That is just not so.

And the reason it isn't a fair fight is because Israel have managed to stop the arms, kindly donated by Iran and Syria, coming in via Egypt?

but they only don't cause so many israeli deaths because they do not have the means to do so.

But they still send suicide bombers (usually women and teenage children) into civillian areas to kill innocent people.

If hamas had the weapons that Israel do, there is no doubt that they would be inflicting the same amount of deaths on the israelis.

Well lucky them.

Unfortunately for the Palestinains they have not been able to stop US arms reaching Israel.

I agree, if both sides disarmed the death toll wouls be signifacntly less, rather than pretty much one sided.

To just arm one side however would seem unjust in the extreme in any other conflict.

Or alternatively the Israelis could just use thier arms less aggressively, that would work too.

just a small pedantic point- but can Hamas really be described as anti-semitic? I thought the Arabs were a semitic people, speaking a semitic language.

Yes Hamas would, but they can't, so they don't. Thank God.

Probably more constructive to discuss the reality of the one sided slaughter rather than what people might do if things were different.

I agree, if Hamas had mass armamnets it would be terrifying for Israel and the world. But they don't and we should keep it that way.

But Israel do, and it is terrifying for the Palestians that they are sluaghtering. in numbers that bare no realtion to the threat they pose or damage they inflict.

I think technically you are right Cory.

perhaps both sides are anti semitic?

cory.

A genetic test would not be able to tell the difference between Israelis and Palestinians.

As someone said on another thread, this has to be the worst case of sibling rivalry ever.

I'm off to bed now. And I will kiss my children in the same way that every Palestinian, Israeli and Jeddi mother will do.

Night all. Although this has been, ahem... fierce at times. I am pleased that I am here rather than discussing 'X-factor, Big Brother Comes Dancing Strictly' or whatever...

Goodnight Bubble.

I am only here because Strictly Come Dancing has finished you know.(I am as vehement in my views on that)

Remember that cartoon, 'come to bed' 'I can't, someone on the internet is WRONG!', I know that's me

Oh, yes, always a chance for bigots and losers to spread more hate.

Just what the world and the whole situation needed!

NOT.

Nantucket - I'm still not clear whether you think that Israel's military action justifies Hamas calling for attacks on Jews worldwide, or on a more minor scale, whether it justifies British Muslims carrying placards deliberately targeting British Jews?

Blimey aren't you? I thought that would have been quite clear from my first post onwards.

The answer is an unequivocal no to all of them.

I find Hamas repugnant, but they are not killing on the same scale. Thank God.

Right now I'm more concerned with mass slaughter than vile words or placards.

Detestable as they are.

Only had time to skim the last dozen posts, but will quickly say that yes I and all British Citizens must and do share a certain responsibility for Iraq.

Nantucket - the USA IS NOT the only country in the world to 'donate' so I wouldn't automatically think your figures were accurate . there's a lot of anti jew/isralei feeling in a certain part of the oil rich world (who are happy to donate!!! - maybe not always in finacial ways).

Think the whole situation is a mess but the swtikas do make me sick

Who created the present 'state of Israel', as it stands now?

Before we start lobbing bombs of condemnation at an artifical machination of many nations' making . . .

Who?

How was it done?

Because it won't take a lot of research to suss out.

Hmm Bubble99

not sure why you'd have an issue with me but I am feeling friendly, so happy to answer.

I did go on the march. natch. and also dur! but I wasn't carrying a banner since I was carrying ds and looking at people's legs to find dd who was enjoying the weaving potential offered by many adults in a crowd.

I, in between this, stood shoulder to shoulder with my friends (as you put it - though quite why they warrant italics is momentarily lost on me)

In answer to your other question.

Yes there were 'peace banners'. It was a very diverse mix of groups including a socialist choir for eg. and yes there were banners calling for peace. and they were no swastikas.

My op was about the unusual and a bit disturbing encounter my mates had wrt their opposition of Hamas AS WELL AS Israeli govt. Not equating, not excusing just an acknowledgment that one needn't support one or the other.

My friends wrote it down and held it up - but I would've if I had
a) time
b) cardboard
c) not been chasing my dc.

okay?

"Only had time to skim the last dozen posts, but will quickly say that yes I and all British Citizens must and do share a certain responsibility for Iraq."

No way.

Thus by the same thinking, all those who voted for Hamas must have a certain responsibility for the rockets being fired into Israel?

I used to think so.

Why can't I sleep!?!?!?!

Can I just point out again for anyone who missed it. The swastika was used by people comparing the Israeli government to Nazi's, please feel free to look up the Warsaw Ghetto 1943 for a clear comparison. It is unlikely it was used as pro-nazi, anti-semetic way. I don't understand why any condemnation of the Israeli government is considered anti-semetic. I personally find the swastika an offensive symbol but this is a matter of opinion not a support of Nazism.

I'd also like to point out the large contingent of jewish people on the march. I'm in Scotland and there was a huge banner saying Scottish Jews. I didn't see any hatred towards them, in fact I think people had more respect for them as they were standing up against a government that people would assume they would support.

I don't think you can compare a placard sign with what is happening in Gaza, especially if you didn't understand the meaning f the sign in the first place.

The facts are, Israel is a very powerful country with nuclear capabilities, a huge army and the support of probably the most powerful country in the world. Hamas is a small generally unorganised group of terrorists and people who's families have been blown to bits by Israel. Israel is using the force of a sledgehammer to crack a walnut.

Israel broke the ceasefire by killing a hamas soldier on the street. Hamas, in retaliation fired home made rockets into Isael and Israel claimed Hamas had broken the ceasefire. Israel is breaking international law by targeting civilians. Israel says Hamas is using civilians as human shields but Israel is doing the same thing with Palastinians when they use their homes as bases.

This is a slaughter.

I agree sushipaws and I honestly think that if Hamas were capable of wreaking this kind of slaughter then Israel would nuke them.

And, in response, to the OP, anti-Semitism and racism of any kind is utterly abhorrent and sickening and should be stamped out immediately. It does alarm me that Jewish people in this counttry are feeling under threat and the people who are threatening them are extremely ignorant and cruel.

Did anyone else come across that quite shocking story recently about new arrivals in Israel from the former USSR who were Jewish and carrying out anti-Semitic attacks in Israel?

Well I still think that comparing the israeli government to the nazi regime is offensive in the extreme. I am torn by the current conflict, but feel that the use of swastikas in protesting against israel cheapens the protest and makes the bearer look stupid.

"It is unlikely it was used as pro-nazi, anti-semetic way."

How can you be so very sure?

I think it's extremely naive to think there aren't idiots out there who mean Jewish people in Britain harm and who are enjoying this current situation as a means of 'legitimate' attack.