Sorry but the war in Gaza does not justify anti-semitic abuse or placards with swastikas on!

[YaddaYaddaYadda]

I've just spoken to a friend who went on the march in London today and feel physically sick at what she told me about some of the anti-semitic comments and chants she heard. She also told me about people carrying home made placards with swastikas intertwined with a star of david. I know people feel very strongly but how is this level of racial hatred justified??

No one should be threatening jews who do not live in Israel since they have nothing to do with it nor any power to change it.

However to criticise the Israelis collectively is not necessarily racial hatred. In WWII not all germans were Nazi's (probably very few in fact), but they shared a collective responsibility for what their leaders did. Just as we do when our leaders act badly.

Nantucket is saying something quite reasonable. There is no equivalence between what is happening to the citizens of Gaza and what is happening to Jews in any part of the world right now.

Of course this doesn't excuse the display of racist material, and no-one on this thread is arguing that it does.

But racist insults and placards are not, qualitatively, as bad as actually being killed.

Sunshinesmith. I would go on a march if it was for an end to violence on both sides. Who wouldn't?

I am still sickened, tbh, by the OP.

onager. Germans' shared a collective responsibility for what their elected leaders' did. But Judaism is a religion, not a nationality.

I would march against suicide bombers in Israel, or would at least publically without any justifciation condemn it.

When will those who support Israel, finally join the marches saying stop, this is evil, you/we have gone too far, you/we are totally wrong and condemn it without any justofcation?

Actually some already do, but it needs to be more.

maybe the stars of David entwined with the swastika symbol are an indication that people feel the Israelis are behaving in a manner akin to the Nazis. The comparison has been drawn by many people, many times. The hellhole which is Gaza has been compared to a concentration camp and the massacre of Gazans has been described as a holocaust.

Nantucket - I agree there needs to be a word for hatred of Arabs.

Naomi Klein's piece today - v. good. Did people also read the letter signed by several eminent British Jews calling for sanctions? I note that one of Olmert's chief advisors is quoted as saying he wanted to "put Gazans on a diet", and another Israeli government member is quoted as saying "They (Gazans) will have an even bigger Shoah." Interesting use of terminology I feel.

It's in today's Guardian, can't do links but no doubt someone else can.

Again. I would march to condemn the violence on both sides. Not in a march which aggressively (see earlier poster) refuses to allow any condemnation of Hamas.

Bubble are you 'sickened' by Israelis actions this week?

(you may have said this on another thread,I cannot remember)but I hope you have felt more sickened by 800 deaths in the past 2 weeks, and starving children left next to thier dead mothers than by a message on a placard.

I am sure you have.

I'm not agreeing with this in any way but I've seen the swastika changed into the star of david before and it's meant to represent the the victims turning into the oppressors.

I have done allot of reading on this subject and while I don't agree with Hamas I certainly don't agree with the murder of hundreds of innocent people.

I was on the march today and it was generally peaceful. I noticed a few angry young guys who looked like they were after trouble and stayed well clear.

Many moons ago I went on the anti war march against the invasion of Iraq in the search for WMD's. I think we can all now agree that the protesters were right on that one. Even on that march there was a contingent of nutters, there to start fights and trouble.

It's hard to organise a march this big without unfortunately attracting a few loony's.

Who is suggesting there is an equivalence in actually being killed and the display of despicable slogans and signs? It's not equivalent. It's just not right, or excusable.

In fact, it's possible to argue that by being against this kind of hatred wherever it is found - be it against Jews or Arabs - one is part of taking a stand against the overt display of it that leads to deaths.

I abhor what is going on in Gaza, and I think Israel should stop what it is doing, and I want all parties would pull their bloody finger out and get on with some workable peace deal.

Swastikas are sick-minded and intolerable.

There, see, I managed to condemn both, without any 'buts' or equivalencies.

I protested becasue the children of Gaza don't deserve to die

I protested because it is despicable to bomb a school full of children and mums when a UN flag was clearly visible and the israeli forces knew about it.

I protested because a bloody wall has been illegally build.. which is worst than the Berlin wall.

I protested because the injustices againts the palestian civilians have gone too far and for too long.

I protested because.... I could be here all night!

Excellent article by Naomi Klein

Bubble99, that's what I said. You can't blame 'Jews' worldwide, but you can blame Israelis who live there.

Donnie, "maybe the stars of David entwined with the swastika symbol are an indication that people feel the Israelis are behaving in a manner akin to the Nazis"

I wondered that, but wasn't sure because I wasn't there to hear them explain it. If that's what it means it's a valid opinion whether anyone else agrees with it or not.

Is there a word for hatred Arabs?

Israeli minister called Palestinians 'cockroaches' needing to be extreminated.

well, if the quotations I have referred to are accurate - which I assume they are, since they have been publicly quoted by a mass of eminent British Jews in a national newspaper for all the world to see - then they would amount to racism of the highest order.

Of course I am sickened by the deaths of Palestinians.

And I am sickened by calls to murder Jews.

Can't I do both?

kayharker I agree and condemn both, but feel in condemning both the qualitative difference needs to be stated.

and that's what I'm doing on this thread, I condemned the swatika's and then said there is a world of differnce between that and what is actaully happening to poeple this week.

Yes you can do what you did and condemn both, I have no argument with that but I feel that on its own is not enough. The difference in scale importance and horror need to be stated too. The events of the past two weeks make it not enough. We should all be screaming in disbelief that this massacre is being allowed to happened. Didn't we think we'd never stand by and allow atrocties like this to happen again, but we are.

The Pelstinians are often called the inheritors of the holocuast. Their persecution comes as an indirect result of it. The resonance of the holocuast for many reasons is there on both sides.

So, Israelis who may have not even voted for their current government, going about their business get rocketed or suicide bombed can be blamed?

Just as Palestinians, who may or may not have voted for Hamas, trying to live their lives in peace cannot be blamed?

Double standards anyone?

Like I said, the average Joe on the street, whether Israeli or Palestinian, gets shat on.

It's the Jews turn next. And I bet there's silence.

Ok bubble, I guess what I'm really asking is, today, right now, after this week, which sickens you more?

Personally I don't think the use of the swastika in any context other than a history book can be justified. My OP wasn't meant to suggest that I'm not sickened by what's going on in Gaza (I am, the slaughter of children can NEVER be justified) but that I'm horrified that people are using it as an excuse for victimising a community here in Britain. British Jews are no more responsible for Israel's actions than we are for the British Government's decision to start the Iraq war.

It's a competition of evil, is it?

Who is worst? Who sickens you the most? Who is the most wicked? How bloody simpleton is that.

You can't just petition for peace full stop?

WinkyWinkola, if you mean me then read what I said. I didn't vote for Gordon Brown, but if he decided to invade France I couldn't simply shrug and say "it's nothing to do with me" If in that example French people shouted that they hated the British I couldn't complain it was prejudice could I.

The difference is between fault and responsibility. It is not my fault if our gov goes crazy and attacks someone, but it is our shared responsibility as British citizens.

That is true yadda I agree with everything you say, but would add, that right now the deaths and starvation of hundreds of civilians is more horrifying.

Would you agree?

The deaths of Palestinian children sicken me. But my anger is directed towards Hamas, rather than the Israelis. And this is where I'm sure we differ.

Why do I have to compare the 2? It isn't a competition. I'm allowed to feel shocked / horrified / appalled etc about many things at the same time without having to rate them all on a 1-10 scale.

updated UN reprot on HUMAN RIGHTS BREACH IN GAZA