Sorry but the war in Gaza does not justify anti-semitic abuse or placards with swastikas on!

[YaddaYaddaYadda]

I've just spoken to a friend who went on the march in London today and feel physically sick at what she told me about some of the anti-semitic comments and chants she heard. She also told me about people carrying home made placards with swastikas intertwined with a star of david. I know people feel very strongly but how is this level of racial hatred justified??

"If in that example French people shouted that they hated the British I couldn't complain it was prejudice could I."

So using that as an example, if a muslim pilot flies into the World Trade Centre, I couldn't complain when the entire U.S. declare my religion part of the axis of evil? In fact, when the U.S. airports search all dark skinned people and muslims at airports? I have to accept that, as a muslim?

No, I do not.

It's not a competition of evil, I just felt on this thread that those concerned about the placards today may be more concerned about this than the slaughter in Gaza, so I stated that whilst abhorrent and worrying there were greater concerns.

I am just interested to find out which actaully does concern poeple most?

A perfectly valid question I think.

Two concerns, which is most pressing, and yes, which is the geater evil that you have heard of this week?

It should be any easy question to answer.

People are screaming about it, nantucket. It's still headline news, thank God, and people are attending massive marches in opposition to it.

Objecting to wormy little shites pushing anti-Jewish feeling isn't headline news, and it's not, at least in this country, outweighing in the slightest, the abhorrence and condemnation of the Israeli offensive.

I've condemned the Israeli offensive on this thread and others. But actually, this particular thread was started specifically about the issue of anti-Jewish sentiment, and I feel no pressing need to pepper my unqualified condemnation of anti-Jewish gubbins with 'Of course, lots of things are worse and Israel are wrong etc etc' because it just looks a lot like justification - and the same morons that push anti-jewish stuff will see it as that.

This particular week? Of course, the Israeli raids on Gaza.

Lots of other weeks, it'll be another force perpetrating a particular evil. You take your pick.

I agree wit that, Yaddayadda.

There was a journalist on R4 who had made friends with both Gazans and Israelis.

He was telling the stories of deaths in these families on either side.

The Palestinian family lost two children who were shot whilst playing on the roof of their apt block, because it wasn't safe for them to play in the street, by an Israeli drone.

The second (Israeli) family had a teenager who was killed by a rocket on her way home from school and a one year old whose left eye was blown out by a rocket.

Should we have a sliding scale for grief? How does comparing help?

WinkyWinkola, you are getting muddled now.

We're talking about actions by the official Israeli government, not by terrorists. I am saying that Israeli citizens living in Israel share some collective responsibility for their own governments actions. At least to the point where they must accept criticism of their country by the victims of their governments policy.

Bubble - your anger is directed towards Hamas. Mine is towards Israel. Your anger is legitimate. So is mine. Hamas hates Israel. Israel hates Hamas. Hamas is anti semitic. Israel is anti Palestinian. Hamas and Israel are equally racist IMO. Neither has the moral high ground here. But one of them does have superior military power. And in the end that is what will win this war for Israel and simultaneously lose it as well; they will win it because it is their intention to blitz Gaza to piecesand they are succeeding. They will lose it because all over the world they are fuelling radicalism and opposition and they will never, ever be left alone - ever.

And now I am going to bed.

do we all agree that the policies of the israeli goverment are breaching some basic human rights, using disproportionate force and the amount of palestinian children, women and men are totally out of order?

I never said I was more concerned about placards than the deaths of children. I am however sickened that people are using this war as an excuse to victimise British Jews which is what this thread was about.

The average Israeli is not allowed to be considered as feeling grief or even regret. They are all evil, intent on killing as many innocent, defenseless children as possible.

Oh, but some Jews are alright. Some Jews agree with us. I don't like Pakis but some of them are alright.

My god. You'd think the Israeli general public had no feelings.

I think after this weeks events it is crucial to state to level of suffering and its precedence above all these other concerns.

It's intersting that no one has yet said 'of course the killings in gaza are worse than a message on a placard'.That says alot. You are just arguing that you shouldn't have to, and yet it should be such an easy an obvious thing to say.

But you can't?

Onager:

"WinkyWinkola, you are getting muddled now.

We're talking about actions by the official Israeli government, not by terrorists. I am saying that Israeli citizens living in Israel share some collective responsibility for their own governments actions. At least to the point where they must accept criticism of their country by the victims of their governments policy."

So, do you accept criticism of your British country by Iraqis, for example? (I'm assuming you are British)

I don't. I did not condone the invasion of Iraq.

Onager - If people have to accept responsibility for the actions of their government then we are responsible for the deaths of a great many Iraqis. That's also the justification the London bombers used for killing 52 people on the London underground and maiming many others.

YADA- people carrying those digraceful placards are detestable.

Will you acknowledge that the actions of the Israeli goverment against the ciitizens of Gaza are also detestable ?

Not everyone in Gaza supports HAMAS by the way!!!!!

Read the thread Nantucket. People have said the worst thing is what's happening to the people in Gaza.

But what people are discussing now are the potential offshoots of the UK marches.

Nantucket - the two are simply not comparable and I refuse to pander to you by giving you the answer you've been fishing for for the last hour or two. This thread is about anti-semitism

But, as regards to the OP. There is and increasing amount of anti semitism in the UK. As there is towards Muslims. The difference is that the only people targeting muslims, from what I can see, are largered up BNP supporters. Apart from the murder of Yitchak Rabin (sp?) I don't think Jews are generally known for their assassination skills? Those targeting Jews are the same extremists who murdered thousands in 9/11 and the 7/7 London tube bombings. And Hamas have now legitimised their attacks.

Given the choice between the two, do you wonder why Jews might be a little more than 'self indulgent' in being worried?

Fucking bloody hell, did 'there is no equivalence' in my post of 22:31 pass you by?

Yes, someone dying is worse than a placard calling for someone to be killed. Is there going to be a rule now that when someone objects to something demonstrably wrong, they have to add an addendum that there are worse things in existence?

Some of you have. Thank God for that. I needed to hear that because I doubted it.

Bubble the grief of each family is equal but there are 100 times as many Palestinans families experiencing the grief as Israelis I'm afraid, and the grief of one israeli family is not equal to the grief of 100 Palestinian families, therefore does not justify the brutality in the name of security.

Good post by Donnie, I'm off to bed too.

I agree with the opening post- the war in Gaza doen't justify the placards but i truly think that there is also an intolerance of Polish nationals, Eastern Europeans...

Never heard from my jewish friends in various social classes to feel that antisemitism it's been mentioned here..

apologies for swearing, it's late, I should be in bed. Without agreeing wholeheartedly with donnie's position, I agree that her last post on the thread was good.

And now I'm sodding off to bed, too. This whole thing has sapped my brain.

Not a rule Kay, but today I felt it important, I wanted it acknowledged.

Bubble no one is targeting muslims??? Are you serious? 800 Palestinian deaths?? The Israelis are targeting muslims.

Yes specificaly in gaza, not world wide, but on a massive scale.

How many Jews killed in thr past two weeks?

and again I return to my original point of worrying about your curatins whilst your neighbours house gets demolished. (or wahtever the saying is)

"I am saying that Israeli citizens living in Israel share some collective
responsibility for their own governments actions. At least to the point where they must accept criticism of their country by the victims of their governments
policy." So what responsibility do you personally take for the war in Iraq? . We as citizens can equally be the victims of the choices made by our governments, and not everyone votes for the government that makes the bad choices.

There is fault on both sides. Which is worse this week is irelevant, because this has been ongoing for so long that you cannot simply take a snapshot and opportion blame on one side.

This week Israel may have killed hundreds of innocent civillians. How many innocent people has hamas killed? how many of their own people, women and children, have they forced to kill themselves taking innocent israelli civillians with them? Hundreds, thousands of people have been killed on both sides. Just because more have been killed in one short period of time does not make the one side more to blame than the other.

Nantucket. Are we counting the grief of the scores of Israeli families who had their loved ones blown up by suicide bombers over the years? Or are we just focussing on this week?

And if Hamas managed to kill more people with the thousands of rockets fired at southern Isarael over the last few years, would they have counted?

See. It just doesn't work, does it? You can give me this week and I can give you the suicide bombings on the school buses, pizza restaurants, weddings, Bar Mitzvahs etc etc. as counter argument.

And, donnie. The fact that Hamas are under armed is because Armajinidad (sp), he of the HD school of thought, hasn't managed to get more through the tunnels. What do you think he is trying to build a nuclear bomb for?

"they will never, ever be left alone - ever."

Donnie, you're right. Regardless of what they do, the Jewish people will never ever be left alone regardless of what they do. Check out hundreds and hundreds of years of attacks and persecution.