Sorry but the war in Gaza does not justify anti-semitic abuse or placards with swastikas on!

[YaddaYaddaYadda]

I've just spoken to a friend who went on the march in London today and feel physically sick at what she told me about some of the anti-semitic comments and chants she heard. She also told me about people carrying home made placards with swastikas intertwined with a star of david. I know people feel very strongly but how is this level of racial hatred justified??

Pooka, surely the offensive part would be the israeli government acting like the nazi regime. Cartainly some parts of this are unpleasantly familiar. I am torn too since clearly there are atrocities on both sides and those committing them are not looking for a better way to resolve it.

WinkyWinkola, we won't agree on responsibility since you will take none. A comfortable position no doubt since you can reap the rewards of living in your society yet not have to feel any personal discomfort about the way they were obtained.

About the march. Some have spoken as though it was a march to intimidate British Jews. As far as I have been able to make out it was a march to the Israeli embassy to protest the Israeli actions. Aside from a few yobs (you'd get those on a march to support breastfeeding) that's what they did.

The Jews in this country are not Israeli at all - they are British. They are not anything to do with this.

You're absolutely right - I will take absolutely no responsibility for the horrors in Iraq. Not in my name, I'm afraid.

And this is all utter pap and nonsense, I suppose. Silly old me

More of my fanciful imagination

Did you just quote from two jewish sources? I'm sure I can find something about black people in the BNP news..........

Nobody's saying there isn't a whole load of anti-semetic nutters out there. There's crazy ignorant people in all races and religions.

That article in the Boston news is basically calling me anti-semetic because I don't agree with the Israeli government.

"""It is unlikely it was used as pro-nazi, anti-semetic way."

How can you be so very sure? """

Because I saw some of the banners and it clearly stated that they believed the treatment of Palastiniens in Gaza was similar to the way the Nazi's treated the Jews in Warsaw. It is illegal to use the Swastika as racist symbol, people would have been arrested if they had. This country is based on freedom of speach and if people think the Israeli government is acting like the Nazi's it is their right to stand up and say so whether you agree with it on not.

Ok
My thoughts, for what they are worth, are:

To compare the current israeli actions with the nazi regime of the 30s and 40s is vile and simplistic. I do not believe that the two are comparable. If you are putting the current israeli government actions on a par with nazi atrocities then you are ignoring the suicide bombers, the hamas rockets and the terrorist actions of hamas. The israeli action is a response, perhaps/probably a disproportionate response, but a response nonetheless to action against the israeli state. And you are almost suggesting or inferring that in the 30s and 40s the nazi action against jews was a response to jewish actions when plainly it wasn't.

The use of the nazi swastika in association with the star of david is inherently revolting IMO. BEcause the star of david is not just a symbol of the israeli state, but has a deeper and more ancient association with the jewish faith. Followers of which were exterminated in their millions by the nazi regime. It just doesn't sit well with me.

These are my thoughts and to some extent they are unrelated to the actual rights and wrongs of the current conflict, but then the OP was not so much related to the rights and wrongs of the conflict as to the anti-semitic display of the swastika at the protest.

Your first link claims that demonstrators in Fort Lauderdale ARE anti-Semitic. However to support this claim it quotes things they said which actually are anti israeli not anti-Semitic so they seem confused. Further down they managed to find some anti jewish quotes, but the paper clearly doesn't know the difference.

Also someone has posted on this thread that both palestiniens and israelis are semitic which (if true) makes nonsense of that claim doesn't it.

I don't doubt that there are anti-jewish people getting involved in this. I'd only dispute that the main thrust of this is anti-jewish. It's anti-israeli.

When everyone hated the Germans in WWII it could have been called Anti Aryan and maybe it was for some. For most it was about getting those bastards with the big guns to stop killing people.

I agree, I don't like the use of the swastika either, I was just pointing out that it is a matter of opinion not an uprising against the jewish people.

I'm not suprised unfortunately. I don;t know how people thousands of miles away can think they just have to pick a side and then hurl hatred at the other side - it's more about them having something to do on a Saturday that feels a boit cathartic I think than having any real emapthy for either side.

Pooka, to say the Israelis were as bad as the nazis might be way over the top, but there are similarities in their actions which should be worrying them let alone us.

When someone (not you. Just generally) says an atrocity is for a good reason they are condoning past atrocities because back then someone had what they thought was a good reason too.

While it can be argued that this is a response that brushes aside the whole history of how they came to have the palestiniens herded into Gaza in the first place.

The use of the nazi swastika in association with the star of david is inherently revolting IMO. BEcause the star of david is not just a symbol of the israeli state, but has a deeper and more ancient association with the jewish faith

Onager - I heard just the star of david, though I may be wrong (often am).

Don't know what alternative symbol for israel there might be. My preference however would be to not have a swastika used in such demos, full stop.

Well in that case then we all resemble the nazi's.

Being hypocritcal isn't the same as being a nazi. Hupocrasy is a very human trait.

Israel are not out to exterminate Arabs. But Hama's is out to exterminate them. So if there are any similarites, it's with Hamas.

monkey trousers, doesn't mass murder, as is happening now in gaza, that is injuring thousands and killing in hundreds over a very short time period, ring a bell?

we are not talking about whose 'intentions' bear any similarities to the nazis, we are talking about the action. I'm sorry that 900 deaths in a couple of weeks aren't enough to constitute a holocaust.

I've stopped discussing the situation in Gaza with many of my friends/colleagues etc because so many people reveal a deeply ingrained anti-semitism which they aren't even necessarily aware of. I find it deeply depressing , although sadly, it doesn't surprise me.

You know what, sherezade, it doesn't make me think of nazism.

Why is there a need to compare with nazisn? Or any other regime that was involved in the deaths of many people quickly?

Was the british bombing of dresden nazi-like? Or 911?

I personally think that the swastika has inherently anti-semitic connotations as a result of WWII. That's why I think it is absurd and incredibly offensive to link the swastika with the star of david.

I agree with MrsMattie regarding the low level anti-semitism that seems to exist.

Ring any bells? With the Nazi's? No, it doesn't. It's a ludicrous suggestion. It's war not extermination.

What, in the grand scheme of things - do you think could possibly be achieved by making such an analogy? Any good? Or just more polorization? Becasue this situation obvioulsy needs more of that, doesn't it?

Pooka, the people who do that are idiots. They identify themselves as idiots by doing it. Unthinking, angry, idiots. Rebels looking for a cause.

There is a need to think of nazism, because of the sheer irony that the very people who should most know about oppression and persecution, have been persecuting, killing, displacing and destroying homes of, palestinians since the 'creation of the state of Israel' in 1949. That is a very long time. Gaza's events are just the icing on the cake.

But in 1949 was there not the offer of a palestinian state as well as an israeli state?

But leaving that aside, you have spoken of the israeli "persecution" being long-standing. I find that particularly ironic if contrasted to the persecution for centuries of jews.

And it seems to me that every time that peace is brokered, it is scuppered by suicide bombers and terrorists burrowing beneath israeli camps and settlements, detonating bombs in tel aviv and firing rockets into israeli territory.

I suppose my take on it is what on earth do you expect israel to do when it's people are threatened and when it is surrounded by hostile nations (iran supplying ordnance to hamas for example)? And when the terrorists themselves hide in hospitals and schools and among innocent civilians.We are talking about fundamentalist terrorists with no part to play in a peaceful middle-east, and who therefore have everything to lose if peace were to be brokered. I personally suspect that even if they given everything demanded, there would still not be peace because the action is based on the concept that israel should not exist.

Are you arguing that israel should cease to exist? Should allow terrorists free rein? What do you think it should do?

I still maintain that to speak of nazism in the same breath as the current conflict is inane and offensive.

Sorry, but the Nazis did not persecute the jews for centuries and we are talking about nazis here.

What do i want the Israeli's to do? It is quite simple. Pack their bags and leave.

Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years and the Nazis attempted to systematically wipe out the entire Jewish race. I don't think you can liken the current war in Gaza to the systematic slaughter of millions of Jews. The Israeli government has not built concentration camps and gas chambers. As for a statement that the Israelis should 'pack their bags and leave', I can't believe there are people on Mumsnet who believe the state of Israel should cease to exist and think it's acceptable to voice such racist opinions.

Ah...

That's not going to happen, nor should it IMO. But it sets the position out of the anti-israelis quite clearly. This issue will never be resolved.

And if you want to understand how it feels to be a British Jew see here

Agree with YYY. I was pretty flummoxed by the "pack their bags and leave" statement. But I suppose it puts into context the madness of comparing israel to the nazi regime - unreasonableness on top of unreasonableness.

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