Demonstration against Israeli bombing of Gaza in London on Saturday.

[SmilleysPeople]

If anyone is intersted.

It's at 12.30pm along Embankment, nearest tubes Embankment and Charing Cross.

It's being organised by Palestinian Solidarity Campaign, Stop the War Coaltion and numerous other groups.

I will bump this sporadically, but if anyone else would like to help promote this, plaese bump too.

I will be there.

And I certainly didn't describe Annie Lennox and Bianca Jagger as anti semitic.

I said I was worried anti semitism was on the rise and would be legitimised by their celebrity voices at these marches. Meaning regardless of whether they themselves are anti semitic or not. I should have been clearer on that point. Sorry.

Good posts WW.

Clinton saw Arafat as a traitor after Camp David because he had invested so much into what was clearly a good deal for Palestine (except that, oops, he forgot to include the complete destruction of Israel as well).

The problem is mad, extreme, religious zealot MEN in total control of the region instead of moderate, peace loving, family protecting, compromising WOMEN (and please don't start on a "Thatcher" tirade anyone).

Yes well let's hope the press doesn't get hold of your comments WW. They watch this website like hawks you know. If you have any brains you will get MN to delete it sharpish.

You're crackers, Donnie. Crackers.

Anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe.

This thread demonstrates that there are just as many women ready to support violent organisations.

It also demonstrates the futility of arguing the toss. Rome is burning while you play fiddle.

Donnie, what are you doing with all these veiled threats? What have people to be afraid of exactly?

Except they're really not afraid.

thanks for the clear recap winkywinkola.

What was missing in that offer was some agreement on a compromise on the of right of return for the palestinians in return for the continued settlements of non sabra jews in Palestine.

That's likely why Arafat chose not to accept and that's a good enough reason.

The common assumption that he's just a moron of a terrorist that walked out on the deal of the century that the nice/ smart US/Israeli administrations were so generously offering is a bit short sighted.

I repeat this: Israel is a state. Because the rest of the world accepted so. Palestine is not. Why not? Only because it is not accepted as such by the international community.

When the former eastern soviet states became independent in the 1990ies, they were accepted as such. Encouraged and supported by the UN, NATO, by the EU. They were given a lease on life with multilateral and bilateral trade agreements. Permitted to prosper within the international trade organisation. Permitted to exist.

Can anyone tell me with honesty that Israel has extended or have ever shown the intention of extending the courtesy to the occupied territories?
No they just choked them and still are.

You are missing the point Slim. If you are against violence, you can't be 'for' either of them. It's an impasse.

Characterising all those who demonstrate against the bombing/invasion of Israel as supporting Hamas is wrong. YOU may see it like that - but most of those who are demonstrating/marching do not (at least the ones I have spoken to). They are supporting Palestinians against an aggressor who is acting disproportionately (although not without considerable provocation)

Calling them anti-semitic is unjust (and, pedantically, wrong since Palestinians are also semitic). We have also tried to support local Jewish groups when they are threatened, and have listened to what local Jews have to say about the issues in the Middle-East

Dismissing them as selective Humanitarians - and thus implying that their opinions and actions are invalid is also wrong. You do not know what else people are doing.

I know many who are also active in the Peace movement campaigning against the British Nuclear Deterrent, against the fact that we are (arguably - like most things it depends on your point of view) in contravention of the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty, and the ABM treaty.

They also support local organisations working to support asylum seekers who have letters from the home office stating that it is too dangerous to send them back to Zimbabwe/ there is no route home (to Gaza)/other reason why they can't be deported whilst simultaneously refusing to support them as their application for refugee status has been rejected and also denying them the right to work and support themselves. They are made destitute as a government policy.

They write to MPs on a multitude of issues - Zimbabwe, Middle East, Arms trade.

They try to be aware of multi-cultural and intenational issues, inviting speakers from both sides to talk to them.

BUT OF COURSE THEY/WE ARE SELECTIVE.
We have limited resources of time/energy and money - so invest them as we can, as we think most urgent - and try to trust that others will choose to work against injustices we cannot address BECAUSE WE CANNOT DO IT ALL

LisaLisa
The Palestinians voted for Hamas. Why? Could the fact that theywere (and are) shut in (effectively) the biggest prison in the world, in great poverty, with massive unemployment, reliant on sporadic (because often blocked) food UN food aid have had anything to do with it? That Fatah/Palestinian Authority was/is corrupt so that Hamas was for many the only organisation offering support/medical aid/food/jobs? I do not support Hamas. I do understand why they were elected. Nor do I mistake that for meaning that all the electors wanted to attack Israel - nor even all those who voted for Hamas.

Although doubtless today there are more Palestinians who want to kill Jews/destroy Israel than there were before the latest bombing/invasion - again I do not condone this, but surely I can understand without condoning. What I can DO about it I do not know - apart from campaign for Israel to stop this assault which must further alienate the Palestinians.
Constructive suggestions welcome!

Refusing to talk to Hamas because they are terrorists is counter-productive (and considering the past history of the Israeli government, shear hypocrisy) since all it does is push Palestinians further to the extremes.

"That's likely why Arafat chose not to accept and that's a good enough reason."

So unless the Arafat got absolutely everything he wanted, he would not reach agreement? You mean, he was absolutely unwilling to concede anything? Meanwhile the Israelis were prepared to concede a lot? Hmmm.

The Palestinians could have had state of their own for a long time. Their leaders have chosen not to accept it unless it is exactly on their terms. No concession.

Those who marched because they think bombing is wrong per se? Or that palestian bombing is okay - okay enough for them not to protest weeks before - and only Israeli bombing is wrong. If bombing os wrong its wrong. That's the humanitarin position. You cant be 'selective' about it - or can you?

I'm going to march against Hamas bombs. Just because they're not as effective doesn't make them any less evil.

hello revs - we meet here.

Donk

" I do not understand why Hamas was elected".

Classic statement and classic indictment of those who support the palestinian cause .

Answer: " Because the vast majority of the palestinians voted for them. They voted for a terrorist organisation above and in place of Fatah because Hamas better served their interests. Hamas agenda is summarised thus: no compromise, no peace, no solution other than Israel Jew free from Sea to Sea".

Think back. There was another nation who declared this within recent history, non?

Donk

"Although today there are more Palestinians who want to kill Jews/destroy Israel than there were before the latest bombing campain...."

Again , a classic I am afraid. Please consult your history books. 1972, 1978, 1983 etc etc. ~All these relate to episdoes of palestinian terror against unarmed and defenceless civilians perpuetrated on Israelis abroad . Kidnapping ,murder, bombing. There are no more palestinians today who want to kill Jews than there have been in histroy. They have ALWAYS wanted to kill the Jews and have ALWAYS had as part of their founding covenant ( see PLO Articles - Hamas articles even worse) the COMPLETE overthrow of Israel .

Behind Hamas stands whom? Reasonable Muslims living a peaceful life? No , ranting , raving lunatic Mullahs who preach Jihad against Israel and the West. Whether or not the West supports Israel and whether or not the West is in Iraq or Afghanistan. This is irrelevent. Why the WEst? Because Islam is a religion that converts by the Sword. Becuase Islam seeks to impose its rule of law, governance , religioin and way of life on its host country and has succeeded in large corners of the world. Jihad means HOly War and don't think you will be exempt from it if Britain leaves Afghan or Iraq or Israel is erased from the World Map.

It is a religious not a political issue. That is the simple reason why the PLO and Hamas and whoever else comes out of Gaza will never ever ever ever accept being part of or goverened by a Jewish STate. Hence they have no ability to accept a compromise/negotiate a solution.

Same reason why the palestinians were dancing in the streets after 9/11 giving out sweets and after the July 2005 tube bombings here.

It never ever fails to surprise me that people can still support this murderous group of people after such vile and disgraceful actions. And before it is bleated that not all palestininans took to thte streets celebrating please review the media footage. It is still in BBC archives in all its sick glory for viewing.

There you will see not Mullahs and Imams but men ( non beareded every day palestininan men - young , old the like) women , teenagers and chldren - yes children - all with fists raised , faces contorted alternatively into masks of hatred and elation celebrating the deaths and maiming of thousands of innocent civilians who did nothing more than try to go to work that day.

It makes me bloody sick.

Eh? Do I deny this is happening? Of course not. I have huge issues with some of Israel's policies.

But I totally resent the huge protest response to a country that suffers from suicide bombings and, after constant rocket assaults decides to take action. Which country would not respond? Why has nobody protested against Hamas?

Everyone is appalled by suicide bombers in Iraq etc. Nobody would dare say, "Oh they must be desperate to have been driven to that." It's only Palestinians that are allowed to be driven such extremes. I can never ever ever understand how parents could even encourage their own children to do that.

I think the fact that Israell targets Hamas as best it can in its bombing and Hamas will just kill all Jews is critical. The fact that Hamas holds Palestinian people to ransom in their own homes is hardly the fault of Israel, is it?

MT - I may have been unclear in my post. You are also (as do we all) reading it through the filter of your own beliefs/opinions/knowledge and prejudices.

As I said in a previous post, I cannot act against what I am not aware of.

I do not agree that just because I did not know that Hamas was continuing to fire (rather ineffectually) missiles at Israel, I cannot therefore protest against another wrong.

In addition - I for one was part part of vigil calling for an end to violence on Gaza - from BOTH sides. It is inevitable at this stage that the emphasis is on the actions of the Israeli government since they are the ones causing most of the current casualties, although not all.

I understand that this was a response to the increased rocket attacks from Hamas.

I do not think that it is a constructive response. It is also vastly disproportionate.

rev - the palestinians haven't just made bad choices since Sharon roganised withdrawal they have always made what you would call "bad choices". And the reason why is that they do not believe in the recogntion or existance of the State of Israel. All else is semantics and piffery. So whether they elect someone who is a repackaged terrorist leader ( Arafat ) or an out and out bastard ( Sheikh Ahmed Yassin) is irrelevant. All these leaders are committed to and were voted in on a platform of the destruction of the State of Israel.

Do you really think they would be voted in otherwise.

So when i refer to "this murderous group of people" I am referring to the palestinians as this. They elect terrorists with blood on their hands and who publicly endorse, espouse and insist on bus bombings and Jihad . What is one to conclude? That they are peace loving really but have been misled.? That is the classic bleeding heart liberal approach and one which any right thinking person will reject if they can just remove the rose tinted spectacles.

Did the palestinians also make a bad choice running through the streets celebrating 9/11 and 07/05 ? how many bad choices will you allow them?

Lisalisa
Misquoting me, and quoting out of context of the rest of the paragraph does not make a logical argument.

Donk - perhaps you don't like the explanation of what your quotes really mean?

Let me find out more about Sabeel. Never heard of. Want to know more. Thanks.