Demonstration against Israeli bombing of Gaza in London on Saturday.

[SmilleysPeople]

If anyone is intersted.

It's at 12.30pm along Embankment, nearest tubes Embankment and Charing Cross.

It's being organised by Palestinian Solidarity Campaign, Stop the War Coaltion and numerous other groups.

I will bump this sporadically, but if anyone else would like to help promote this, plaese bump too.

I will be there.

they are the only (with the poss exception of the lebanese govt) democratically elected govt in the arab world.

so like them or not, ignoring them isn't an option.

lalala won't read anything that doesn't agree with me.

god MT time to post but no time to read?

what has happened to you?

our words mean nothing I mean, not words per se. It's all hot air. Better people than us are trying.

agree with monkey, in that a comparison to Northern Ireland is not credible. The IRA had/has a MUCH greater connection and visceral affinity with Catholics in the North than Hamas can sustain.

And Sinn Fein were NEVER a govt in an occupied territory.

oh god.

the comparison revolves around any terrorist action justifying a massive military response with civilian casualties being an unfortunate collateral consequence which you blame on the terrorists.

give me strength.

soph - I can lend you some.

ooo yes please pan.

seriously i wouldn't worry too much about obama (although i'm a bit twitchy).

but I want it back..

and no, I don't worry too much about Obama, as I don't expect too much. Esp. on this issue. There is a massive political hinterland that he will rely on to be an "effective" change-maker..but he will be limited by this sort of stuff, which he is too clever to challenge. IMHO.

i hope you're wrong. i hope you're wrong. i hope you're wrong. so much.

he's got under my cynical radar and i am really hopeful of a real difference.

and lets face it now that putin is doing the do we really need something different!

But the IRA were paramilitary and they didn't give a shit about civilian casualties - Enniskillen springs to mind, as does the potential carnage had the SAS not put down the terrorists in Gib. Yes, that is a deliberate choice of words.

What response do you feel the IRA justified? Run along and play with your dolls, and by the way, kneecapping is a nasty habit we need to break you of? For my part, I still switch off the TV if either Adams or McGuinness are given air time, and it would not have broken my heart had either of them been caught by the shoot to kill policy.

I have read the article you linked to, and the one in the Times by Daniel Finkelstein. We do not understand the Israeli mindset, as expressed by one blogger in the Telegraph today....

'I think we'll see more of this, that is, acting in a way that people think is inconsistent with Israel being a western-style democracy.

Because Israel has its back to the wall in terms of survival and this will get worse.

And because I don't think that Israel is a "western-style democracy".

I cannot see how the electoral requirement to always have a Jewish majority can mean that Israel is a democracy.

I think that Israel is a racial oligarchy, and rules for its Jewish citizens or, at least, governs so that the Jews are always in the majority electorally.'

Israel is NOT a Western style democracy and so we cannot judge it as one; they cannot talk to Hamas until Hamas renounces publicly its intention to wipe Israel and Jews off the map.

The Arab nations could get involved here and give land to the Palestinians mandated as their homeland, as a gift from the Ummah. They don't - why?

I don't see how the Israelis could respond other than by force...yes, in war, civilians are casualties, particularly when used by terrorists with no conscience. Even if Israel stopped all military action, do you really think Hamas would? I don't.

yes, you are scary indeed.

Hamas grew out of the very immediate annihalation of any Arab demand for "their own space" in Palastine, that WW2 denied them, least of all taking so much land that was previously Palastinians. Truth is that the land that is called Israel/West Bank/Gaza Strip is poor. But IS supported by the West as it is too geo-politically sensitive to the developed world to ignore. World oil prices rely on it too much.

As for Adams/McGuiness, the British govt. were screwed as they were too well supported by the Republican section of N. Ireland to have them shot. The Brits "shoot to kill policy" was state murder, though as avowed liberals we simply couldn't accept that label.

Why am I scary?

The Arab nations surrounding Israel could easily give the Palestinians a homeland, and don't kid yourself otherwise. They don't because either they want Israel to deal with Hamas; or because they are content for Hamas to be the public stick that they privately fund to beat Israel with. Take your pick.

Prior to the Palestinians having a claim to the land, didn't it belong to the Jews until the Romans kicked them out in AD70 or thereabouts after the destruction of the temple, or was I dreaming? That is presumably why the Al- Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock are on Temple Mount and not the other way around?

I am not an avowed liberal at all, you speak for yourself. Shoot to kill in the context of the IRA was more sensible than the usual policy of don't fire until fired upon. When you are dealing with a rabid animal you don't let it close enough to bite; you put it down.

not too far from the truth?

How is that either scary or ignorant? Just because it doesn't chime with your world view. You evidently can't remember as far back as 1986 and 87 to Gibraltar and the Enniskillen massacre. What about the Brighton hotel bombing, or the Hyde Park bombing, or the little boy killed when a bomb went off in a waste paper basket? What about the Harrods bomb, or the assassination of Airey Neave or the murder of the two soldiers who passed by a funeral?

I call the above murder (with the exception of Gibraltar because for once they were caught and dealt with appropriately). What should the Govt have done. Smiled sweetly and let the IRA continue?

I fail to see how having a view on this makes me ignorant and a bitch. Perhaps you would care to elucidate in a more mature manner how I am either, given that you know nothing about my background, educational qualifications, or gender, or perhaps you are incapable of argument without descending into vitriol and childish name calling.

You also fail to comment on why the Arab nations don't help out the Palestinians; or the prior claim that some may consider the Israelis to have on the land from the date of the Diaspora.

If people are to give things back, perhaps Europe could start with the land/property and money seized from the Jews in WW2 and never returned.

Pan i have reported your post

At the risk of being pedantic, the article on the use of WP against civilians actually notes that the way in which it is being used in this case would not constitute a crime under international law as it is being used to mask troop movements rather than as a weapon in its own right - as the article says Human Rights Watch have "no evidence that Israel was using incendiaries as weapons".

Nonetheless, clearly the heavy use of WP in civilian areas shows a flagrant disregard for the welfare of those civilians even if they are not the targets of those munitions.

rev - sorry for not responding - I have been in the thick of this for 3 days and it is taking a disproportinate amount of time ( sometimes till 1.00am) . I am also coming to realise that there is not all that much point debating wiht people whose minds are so firmly made up and whose views ( and i don't refer to you here but to some others) I consider very dodgy integrity wise.

I think the point of debate is always that we hope to either influence those around us or to educate ourselves better on the issue. You have posted material I had not seen previously and I have started to read quite a lot of it. Thank you . It has therfore served one purpose for me in eliciting views and sources for those supporting the palestinians. The other purpose - being perhaps to influcene those who have not heard the Israeli persepctive on all this is more difficult - I have realised that save for a perhaps minority of MNers seeking genuine information most of hte posters here have made their minds up and debate is tehrefore more or less pointless as people are pretty entrenched. It leaves me more and more wiht a bad feeling and that is not what MN is all about for me. I have been here for 6 years and have not felt about the site the way i have in the last week or so - having previously found it a more rationale and balanced and pleasant place to be.

Having said all I really want to say on the Israel debate I do not see much more point in contirubing to the debate as it currently stands today.

I am also exploring other websites with perspectives on teh subject - from teh btselem one you linked to to - at the other ( and very saddening and sickening extreme) the Ummah one. I spent almost 4 hours ( see what i mean about time wasting!) on that one with dh yesreday with the slowly sinking realisation that the whole peace aspect is pretty pointless if - and this is a big if here - the majority of muslims in palestinian territories feel the same way as the posters on Ummah. Never having come across the site before I can't guage whether it is broadly representative of the views of the muslim community as a whole or just a lunatic fringe ( we have the same in our religion too!). I hope the latter but somehow for some reason doubt it.

Maybe some muslims here who are familiar with the site can opine on this?

Anyway that explains why I have not been on this particular debate wiht such intensity here.

yes lisalisa the two positions do seem entrenched. I think it is easier to understand why the Israelis use such aggressive force against the Palestinians when they feel that the vast majority would like to see them annihilated, especially in light of most Israelis' family losses in recent history. But wishing is not the same as doing, there is no way the Palestinians or Hamas could wipe Israel off the map, and the continued suffering of the Palestinians just serve to create more hatred and radicalisation. I do believe the current attacks are disproportionate. I suppose Israel are trying to prove to the Palestinians that they should never have voted for Hamas, but unfortunately i think they are proving the opposite.

ruty - if you look at that webvsite Ummah you will see some pretty scary stuff about the Muslims ( note the palestinians but muslims worldwide - their contributors are from pakistan, dubai,oman ,florida - to name but a few) wanting the wholesale destructino of Israel and murder ( or at least subjugation to Islam along wiht a terrifiying regiem of taxation and 2nd class citizen status) of all jews worldwide - not just in israel. That's why I wondered what the opinoin of other muslims who post here is - whether that is regarded in teh muslim community as a lunatic fringe website or mainstream with kind of gloves off we're on our own we can now say what we really feel type views...

Kept me awake last night that site.....