Demonstration against Israeli bombing of Gaza in London on Saturday.

[SmilleysPeople]

If anyone is intersted.

It's at 12.30pm along Embankment, nearest tubes Embankment and Charing Cross.

It's being organised by Palestinian Solidarity Campaign, Stop the War Coaltion and numerous other groups.

I will bump this sporadically, but if anyone else would like to help promote this, plaese bump too.

I will be there.

I've followed this thread with interest.

Everyday I try to think about this conflict and I really feel myself being pulled in different directions. The whole situation is so suffused with hatred and emotion on both sides that it is difficult to see clearly.

On the one hand, I have an instinctive gut reaction when I see pictures on television of burning flags with the Star of David and swastikas on them. I do see a hostile and simmering antisemitism in the arab/muslim world. When I was working with refugees, I used to receive emails from a colleague working in humanitarian aid for a muslim organisation which would along with other news from the area would sometimes include comments such as "I see the brothers killed another four cockroaches this week" - which I found really horrific and offensive - gloating over the murder of Israelis.

On the other side, we have a situation where Israel seems almost like an automaton devoid of emotion or conscience. When a human abuses another (for eg domestic abuse or child abuse) they are often only able to do it by dehumanising their victim, by denying the reality of the victims experience. I think that this is what happened here.

I think what Israel should be doing for starters is flooding the occupied territories with aid: food, water, medicines. I also think that the response has been disproportionate.

Personally I feel angry when I hear either side of the polarized views - there is so much emotional propaganda and wrongdoing. I have given up personally trying to work it out in my head and now approach the situation in terms of "Who is suffering? What can we do to alleviate it?"

I think the answer is quite obvious and despite in my opinion legitimate fears about future security, Israel should be a "mensch" and do the right thing.

However, I would not attend such a march purely because I have serious misgivings about the far left and their idealism being a conduit for the reemergence of antisemitism. As someone else has pointed out, if you think there weren't antisemites in that crowd you are sadly mistaken.

I think I would have attended a peace march calling for cessation of all violence in the area and protection for civilians esp women and children though.

Unfortunately there are extremist loonies on the fringes of all religions and political movements. I am not a muslim (I'm an atheist) but I don't think that represents a majority view at all.

I can understand how you find that scary Lisa but have you never questioned where this is coming from and whether the actions of the Israeli government are feeding the hatred? Have the events of the last 2 weeks encouraged or discouraged the growth of anti-semitism do you think? Is this really a good stragegy long term for the safety of Israel and Jewish people worldwide?

"there is no way the Palestinians or Hamas could wipe Israel off the map, and the continued suffering of the Palestinians just serve to create more hatred and radicalisation. I do believe the current attacks are disproportionate."

yes but if palestine had even half the military power tht israel has, then i'd wager the state of israel would cease to exist within days if not hours.the only reason that the hamas have not killed as many israel citizens and that the israel response is "disproportionate" as has been said is due to a)lack of resources on hamas part and b)luck
the hamas are not launching rockets into israel hoping to kill "just a few" they are hoping to kill as many as possible that their rudamentry bombs will allow.

taking the situation as a whole back as far as the british mandate after WW1 i'd feel a lot of sympathy for the palestinians as i think (although i'm happy to be corrected) the area given to the jews after the wars now known as israel was 75% populated by palestinians,so can see why they'd be aggrieved at displacement.
and i thik there has been wrong on both sides. what i can't understand is the reaction to the latest outbreak of fighting (and even the last year) where people seem to be jumping out of their skin to condemn israel but not do the same to palestine.yet if you pull them up on it they say their condemnation of israel and lack there of for hamas is in no way them condoning hamas. put it this way if 2 kids get into trouble and you only punish or chastise one of them, then you are defacto condoning the others actions.
i really don't see what israel could have done in this situation, hamas broke the cease fire and started launching rockets. israel respond in kind only with more sophisticated rockets. hamas then immediately want a cease fir although it would seem clear they only want it because they have run out of weapons. israel are bordered almost exclusively by countries who want them wiped off the map. hamas has a stated goal of annialating israel, and yet when they start lobbing rockets at israel this time around and get a retaliation it is israel who are in the wrong?
AND BREATHE,sorry i know it's rambling and all over the place but i just got soaked by a burst pipe

Sputnik - i am really seeking answers from Muslims as to whether this website represents a lunatic fringe or not. As an aetheist I do not think you can comment on how or where the anti - semitism seen on that website started. It is not the anti Israel sentiment I am talking about but the very very frightening anti Jewish stuff.

I assume you are not suggesting that israel is responsible for such anti semitism? If you are that has echoes of Nazi Germany where the Germans justified their presecution by saying that if the Jews weren't money lenders, if the Jews weren't trying to run and influence the world, if the Jews weren't this or weren't that. It's that age old argement used by the anti semite - if you just do this and that and "behave better" we will all like you more. We've seen it throughout histroy - if we would just covert to christianity we wouldn'be killed in the crusades/if we'd just be communists and not stick to our religion in the face of hte new world ideal we wouldn't be thrown into prison/ if we'd just convert to Islam we would'nt have to live as 2nd class citizens and be taxed ot the hilt ( iraq etc before the jews left).

Thanks for reporting Pan Ruty - I didn't bother as I suspected he wouldn't be back to engage in debate.

Rev - the Israeli military will do what it can to protect its troops, ie obscuring the gunners, as it should; however, they do need to find an alternative method to do this. It is not classifiable as a war crime as the phosphorus is not being targetted at civilians.

I think that saying something is a war crime when it isn't, inflames the debate.

One also needs to consider that this boils down in the end to a fight not about land, but religion. Hamas considers I think that they are fighting a Jihad against Israel; and I feel that in the grip of such fundamentalism, no reason can or will prevail. This is a visceral conflict that will not I think be resolved by diplomacy.

I also don't think that Israel is au fond too bothered about world opinion - look where having the world's good opinion got them in the past - the gas chamber, and one day a year when the Shoah is remembered - an event that happened within my Mum's lifetime and only really 25 years before I was born in the mid 60s. Israel is armed and militant and will fight for it's survival to the bitter end, and we all need to remember why as this provides the basis for what Israel is doing.

Lisa I am not saying that the actions of israel justify persecution. What I am saying is that violence breeds violence and desire for revenge on both sides. I don't condone it, I would like an imediate ceasefire and negotion.

But do you feel safer than you did this time last month?

I find it interesting that people will often say they understand the psychological effect of the conflict radicalizing people etc. True. Also true if you're looking for a reason behind Israel's behaviour. As if a people could undergo what they went through in WWII and not have decades of resulting complex psychological trauma - new state or not.

Cheers ruty. I do regret allowing someone who equates humans with animals ( esp. humans of a viewpoint with whom I have a very strong attachment) getting under my skin so. So thanks for reporting it.

scary - we seem to breath different air, and what little time I do have to MN won't be spent enaging with such an apologist for brutish behaviour from both the Brit. govt in Northern Ireland, nor Israel in Palastine, as it were.

I don't think Hamas has anything like a peaceful agenda, nor even the 'best interests' of it's citizens at heart. Israel DOES have the best interests of it's citizens at heart, but it is exercising that in a way that is murderous in an indiscriminate manner. The US is the only country that can exert sufficient influence over Israel....but then Israel would not have acted without Washington's green light.

Precisely Imaginary.
Which is why I think the international community should step in an help negotiate a solution.

Sputnik - no I don't. And after reading that website I feel even less safe!!

Scaryteacher - I agree with your post about it being a more than political conflict at base level. If you read that website you will see that the Qu'ran supports the elimination of Jews worldwide and the eventual suffering and fall of all non muslims ( the kaffir we are all called) at the sword of the Muslim ( just that the Jews seem to be singled out for extra worse treatment ). The quotes that were being put forward to justify very scary and murderous aims and behaviour from the Qu'ran were extremely frightening. That is why I am waiting for some Muslim posters ( of whom I know there are quite a few here - slim22, saadia for example ) to enlighten us on this website.

Scary teacher I'm not sure I understand you last sentence.

Sorry I will just pick up at the last few posts as I'm a continent and many hours apart from you.

I will mainly address this to Lisa. Glad to see you are broadening your spectrum of information sources.
However, going from one extreme to another (right wing Israeli politics to radical muslim website) is not going to make you any wiser.

Seriously Lisa, I'm not trying to belittle you or anyone as Monkeytrousers suggested.
But I beg you! be smart about educating yourself. Read a proper newspaper. And not only one. Get perspective. Read facts, read editorials. Pick up a map and a basic contemporary history book.

We all know websites are NOT a reliable source of serious info.

Now as a muslim I will answer your question: It is likely they are funded by radicals. If you click on "about"" "contacts" "mosques"...there's nothing. It's a front. Or simply a chat room to spill yet more hatred.

There are thousands of those. If all you want is to convince yourself that palestinians or arabs or muslims or whatever are dirty disgusting terrorists or whatever is the term used before, then go on and work yourself up to a frenzy.

I also think the time has come for international intervention to be honest - though what that would be I'm not sure.

BTW am a total non believer. Was born and raised in a secular ,muslim family and lived most of my life abroad. So probably not representative.

Pan, I am not a 'brutish apologist' but someone who grew up with the very real threat of the IRA in the 70s and 80s. I also knew people murdered by them, so I have a strong attachment to those who fought against them.

'I do regret allowing someone who equates humans with animals ( esp. humans of a viewpoint with whom I have a very strong attachment) getting under my skin so.'
So you share a very strong attachment with terrorists then? Nice. Now we know.

lisalisa - I'm not an expert on the Qu'ran, but I think that the quotes were probably taken out of context by those quoting them unless you have read the entire Surah. Muslims hold Abraham, Noah, Moses and Jesus as prophets, all Jews, so I think that this is yet another example of the Qu'ran being twisted by it's interpreters.

Good point imaginary. There is quite a bit of literature on the topic.

I really had to bite my tongue yesterday because if I had gone down that route Lisa would probably have caught me at the jugular.

Lisa would be very very interested to hear your take on this.

Slim22 - I hardly think I am in a frenzy!

I am glad to see you condemn this website too as a "front" and a form to "spill more hatred". I think if you can just reassure me that the majority of muslims do not see things this way or hold these views we will be half way there. Also , what about all teh quotes from the Qu'ran? I am genuinely seeking information here - not trying to be inflammatory - i am just waiting for a Muslim to examine them and say that they are misquoted or out of context etc.

See - if there is to be dialogue and peace it is very important to know that those you want to try and engage in peace at least do not deny your existance or hold that the end of days can only come when you are eliminated otherwise there can neveer be any point in negotiating or trust.

That is why i want to know.

And btw I caught on to the Ummah site by googling links for muslims so I can hardly be accused of hunting for extremist sites. I have know way of knowing what is in a website and before going in only saw that it was a Muslim one.

You say you are not trying to belittle me but I believe you are. Why suggest I read a newspaper or a basci history book when you don't know whther I do ? I read 2 broadsheets daily ( love reading ) and have lots of informaiton on the current conflict, its history and politics. I am well informed on teh subject - the fact that i don't agree with your point of view does not make me well informed!

Slim - the last sentence was to underline that the Israelis will never again allow themselves to be persecuted as they were during the Shoah; and that this forms the basis for their actions now.

Ok Lisa, I didn't think you would be feeling safer somehow. I wouldn't and I am truly sorry for that.

So now can you ask yourself whether in that respect Israel's actions have really been in your best interests, or whether there could be a better way forward?

good point the Shoah and collective psyche effect I mean.

Oh I think we should really stay WELL CLEAR of quoting revelations.
Just more confusion.
This is a secular problem, International Law, human rights and all, not the crusades revisited!

Ah, that makes sense. A very large part of my family grew up being terrorised by the British Army in their own houses. Because they were Catholic and for no other reason. None of them were actually murdered by them, but many other people were.

And yes, one can have a very strong attachment to people who fight for their cause, Nelson Mandela being such a "terrorist". So know you DO know.

As for memories, I am old enough to remember the Civil Rights Movement in Northern Ireland, and Bloody Sunday. Lets agree disagree. We have no common ground on this thread.

Ah Slim22 - you say you will answer as a Muslim and then admit you are probalby not representative as you are a non believer. Not playing wiht semantics here but as you will appreciate there is a very real need for a practicing believing Muslim to explain the quotes and whether it is representative of those who believe in the Muslim faith.

Scaryteacher _ I suspect that someone will be along, yes, to say that the quotes are out of context etc but there were many, ^ many, of them - not one or two and they followed a type of story menaing that it is not easy to dismies the whole lot of them as out of context. On one particular thread I followed there was a muslim lady in Oman I think it was who seemed more moderate ( although calling for the destructin of Israel there was no anti semitims or filthy language) - the other posters ( of whom there were at least 10 individuals - maybe more - the thread ran to about 16 pages) all jumped on her and her poor and weak interpretaion of hte Qu'ran saying that it was the duty of the Muslim to do this or that and the Jews were of course this or that.

Well Lisa I don't know.

Just had a feeling you spoke more with your guts. You pretty often just go " heah? prove it" and run rather that engage.
Kind of passive aggressive?

This seems to be changing however.

The problem though Slim is that it is not a secular problem at the bottom; it is a religious one. I also think that the West have trouble understanding that culture and religion seem to be inextricably linked here.

For instance, you call yourself a 'secular Muslim' and I have heard of 'secular Jews'. For me that is a contradiction in terms...how can one claim to be a secular member of a religion, when secular can be defined as having no faith, or being apart from faith? I have never heard for example of secular Christians. You either are one or you aren't. Is the term Muslim or Jew then indicative of a culture as well as a religion? I'm just starting an MA in World Religions so the whole thing fascinates me.

As to the collective psyche thing, it is evidently well engrained on both sides; hence the conflict.