Demonstration against Israeli bombing of Gaza in London on Saturday.

[SmilleysPeople]

If anyone is intersted.

It's at 12.30pm along Embankment, nearest tubes Embankment and Charing Cross.

It's being organised by Palestinian Solidarity Campaign, Stop the War Coaltion and numerous other groups.

I will bump this sporadically, but if anyone else would like to help promote this, plaese bump too.

I will be there.

Sophable - i agree with your post of 13:11. A 2 state solution is the only solution. The question is that Hamas will not support it - they don't want 2 states - only one and since they are the governement of Gaza how is this to be acheived>

And when there are 2 states - what of continuing rokcet attacks on Israel then from the other state? Are we still expected to suck it up then?

Lisa you make me laugh!

So Israel wants 2 states then? Israel will NEVER allow Palestinians to keep their head above water and evolve into a state. They will blockade them as they have been doing so far so that the economy can not flourish.

Look at what happened in the Lebanon. As soon as the diaspora came back and rebuilt beyrouth and cash started flowing in, they bombarded.

Israel has created a fortress for itself in the last decades. It has surrounded itself with hatred. No option but full on war now.

It is very scary for Israelis.

I'm probably the only person on this thread who wasn't against the invasion of Iraq. Two years ago, I would haev jumped on that bandwagon, becasue I'd have thought it was the good liberal thing to do. Two years ago, I'm ashamed to say, I was on the anti-Isaeli bandwagon too, for the same reasons.

That's not a dig at anyone, by the way, just apropos of nothing

oops!
my conclusion is that Israel must be even more desperate that Palestinians because it is a loose loose situation for them.

Monkeytrousers,
I remember previous discussions. Can I ask you what made you evolve in this direction?
Honestly, I a not trying to start a cat fight. Just curious.
Sorry maybe that's too personal?

that's two states lisa, not some tiny uninhabitable strip of land.

i don't agree that the israeli govt wants a two state solution at all, their actions are all about blocking any possibility of that.

imo all it takes is the will to make this happen in the whitehouse. Clinton was on the way and it is a tragedy of epic proportions that his sexual shenaningins and the fact that there is no third term in washington killed progress in the middle east stone dead.

i am very much hoping that obama will move this on.

and the invasion of iraq has lead to a DECREASE in peace and security in the region and the world!

Slim22 - "Israel has surrounded itself with hatred" How so? The arab countries surrounding it made war with Israel throughout the years since 1948 don't forget. Israel has tried to live in peace.

And of course I support a 2 state solution. What else can be the solution here? From a purely selfish perspective it has got to be in Israel's interests to have a group of people who intenstely hate it and have no wish to be part of it removed formally from it and made into a state. In fact, I thought that was what Gaza was now? Independent certainly. But I wish for nothing more than the powers that be to make this 2 state soluction work. But Hamas will not let it rest there. They will not be happy with a 2 state solution.

There are countless news articles available on-line to substantiate the claim that Israel itself repeatedly breached the ceasefire. I'm sick of reading propaganda asserting the contrary.

The whole article below is worth reading, IMO.

From The TimesJanuary 5, 2009 By Rabbi Michael Lerner

"Hamas had respected the previously negotiated ceasefire except when Israel used it as cover to make assassination raids. Hamas argued that these raids were hardly a manifestation of a ceasefire, and so as symbolic protest it would allow the release of rocket fire (usually hitting no targets). But when the issue of continuing the ceasefire came up, Hamas wanted a guarantee that these assassination raids would stop. And it asked for more. With hundreds of thousands of Palestinians facing acute malnutrition, Hamas insists that the borders be opened so that food can arrive unimpeded...."

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5446519.ece

Sophable - i agree and the majority of Isarelis agree. Two states. Separate with their own governments etc. But will Hamas agree. Sophable - read Hamas manifesto - it says that they want the whole of Israel back - not 2 states. So how will you get them to agree and how you will you react if and when there are 2 states and Hamas still continue violence. Would Israel in your eyes be justified in treating this new state like any ohter hostile nation and fight back with all its might or would you insist that this new state of israel make further concessions/appease further the new state of palestinian until there truly is nothng left of Israel?

I am genuinely interested to know btw - from you and any ohters. ( apart from donnie ).

lisalisa it's not a choice between using illegal terrorist tactics and appeasement you know?

a GENUINE two party solution would entirely erode hamas' powerbase, unless they changed tack which they might.

two state that should read sorry.

I am astonished that anyone seriously believes Obama is going to make headway on this. I was as euphoric as anyone else when he was elected, but he's not quasi-divine. And apart from that nothing he has actually said indictaes that he stands in any different position to the Shrub.

I am astonished that anyone seriously believes Obama is going to make headway on this. I was as euphoric as anyone else when he was elected, but he's not quasi-divine. And apart from that nothing he has actually said indictaes that he stands in any different position to the Shrub.

Sophable _ I didn't unddrstand your response - sorry.

What killed the negotiation is that clinton like all previous administrations treated palestinians with contempt.

They are "invited" to negotiations but must sit down and shut up while Israeli and US officials draft their wordings then smile and sign.
Arafat walked out because he was made to nod without being involved in the discussion.

Why do you say that slim22?

because it's the truth

Substantiate it Slim22.

Yes and make sure you don't substantiate with the same crap lisalisa gave me

Actually it came from kayharker

One of the weaknesses of the Oslo peace process was that it deliberately left the most difficult issues - Jerusalem, refugees, borders, setlements - until last, in the mistaken belief that this would make them easier to resolve.

The Palestinians' most legitimate concern was that without additional preparatory work the risk of failure was too great.

The Americans told Arafatthat they would support a "substantial" withdrawal were Camp David to fail. Clinton urgedIsrael to open the summit with a series of goodwill gestures toward the Palestinians.

Yet, having concurred with the Palestinians' contentions on the merits, the US immediately proceeded to disregard them. Ultimately, there was neither additional preparation before the summit, nor a third redeployment of Israeli troops, nor any action on interim issues.
And Arafat got blamed for the failure.

I know this because I educate myself. I'm not just hysterically pointing fingers.

Here is something easy to read. The author is American AND jewish. Maybe that should give it enough credibility in your eyes?

www.newsweek.com/id/177716

yeah, can we not have a go at lisalisa for the Reuters link - I posted it, it was sent to me by one of my friends, who has just told me she sent it to me to show that it's not at all unheard of for Hamas to be linked to the UN in a bad way. She didn't make that clear, and I thought it was a current report. My apologies for the unintentional misleading.

make sure you read real slow so you understand all the words.

slim