Demonstration against Israeli bombing of Gaza in London on Saturday.

[SmilleysPeople]

If anyone is intersted.

It's at 12.30pm along Embankment, nearest tubes Embankment and Charing Cross.

It's being organised by Palestinian Solidarity Campaign, Stop the War Coaltion and numerous other groups.

I will bump this sporadically, but if anyone else would like to help promote this, plaese bump too.

I will be there.

I haven't read teh Breaking Silence sight

In realtino to what saadia are you referring?

LisaLisa
You might find some of the statements from IDF soldiers on the Breaking the silence website illuminating.

lisalisa - Israel's bombing of Gaza has been condemned by every country and humanitarian organisation in the world. The Palestinians cannot leave, they are trapped. It is utterly despicable.

Actually lisalisa you are missing the point and unfortunately equating the Israeli state with jews - criticising Israel is not being anti-semitic and unfortunately it is rather a modern-day myth that for ever and a day jewish people have supported the 'return' to Israel.

I think it is totally understandable that after the holocaust, possibly the most dreadful thing to happen in human history and changing the face of humanity, people turned to zionism as a political ideology - after all the fundamental tenet of zionism is that jews cannot live side by side with non-jews - and this must have made a most awful sense to people who have suffered so.

However, it is still the case that even with the hauntings of the holocaust most jews did not choose to go to Israel and I really resent the implication that Israelis speak for all jewish people, or that any criticism of Israel is anti-semiticism.

Actually just like everyone else there are wide political differences among jews - there are socialists, tories, zionists, extremely religious, and non-religious jews.

Personally I am against the Israeli state for two main reasons - firstly I do not believe that being persecuted gives one the right to take anothers land (and lets face it Palestinians were not responsible for the holocaust were they?)

Secondly I really abhor the zionist idea that people cannot live together peacefully - the foundings of this idea originate in europe in the 1800s when the idea of a jewish 'state' was floated as a response to anti-semitism and was fundamental in blaming eastern european jewry for emerging "scientific racism" rather that fight that racism head-on.

Oh and thirdly lets be absolutely clear that America and Britain didn't give a toss about Jews during the war - (quotas etc) - but it's bloody handy to have a state that is dependent on you and hated by everyone esle while the usa control the one area of the world where the oil happens to be!!

....Steps back and waits to be called a self-hater!!

your comment that the SWP opposed the creation of Israel.

Lisa you are now a perfect illustration of why the despicable actions of Israel can extend to taint jews with a bad name.

you are in total denial. shame on you.

yes - agreed Slim. Lisalisa You have described both Kate's and Rev's posts as 'bollocks' and dismissed good points made by Saadia and others. You even question the veracity of the BBC footage because you can't see anyone 'crying or looking sad'.

Why hasn't Egypt allowed Palestinians in as refugees?

That is true Spicemonster (though not sure about the 'every') - but Hamas has been condemned by the same people. Everyone can ask Israel to show restraint, scale down, etc, as they do, Bush included - but none of them actually tell them to stop fighting Hamas because they know that asking them to stop defending themselves is suicide.

Hamas has us all spinning - that's actually what terrorist organisations do best, create chaos and ever more extreme factions founded on looney moral convictions, all based around the ethos that 'a's lives are worth more than 'b's - so the more 'a's that die as collateral damage, all works in our favour to whip up more hysteria - even though we are the 'a's.

Not sure if that makes any sense!

bubble, because they have a land and UN resolutions to safeguard them in their land.

What now? you want them to feck off and let Israel take over without complaining?

I think it would suit Israel very well if Gazans were absorbed by Egypt - then the Palestinians would be even further away from the possibility of having a viable State and Israel could take Gaza back.

That's a horrible story Lisa. FWIW, I do feel a terrible injustovce has been inflicted in the Israei people in recent years, and mostly because of a liberal trend that has its roots in colonial guilt.

The whole idea that Israeli universities, lecturers and students should be pilloried. Scientists banned, the trend of western students wearing Hamas scalves around campus. Yes Israeli strategy may be brutal - that is because they are fighting just as brutal enemy. And children die on both sides. None of it is just or right. Someone should get the leaders, lock them in a room and let them kill each other,instead of initiating endless generations into their moral morass.

Criticism of Israel by Jews is not new nor is the condemnation of Israels policies towards Palestinians. This is a from a famous letter to the Israeli press by Dr Shlomo Shmelzman, a holocaust survivor who went on hunger strike in protest at the Israeli war in Lebanon 1982

?In my childhood I have suffered fear, hunger and humiliation when I passed from the Warsaw Ghetto, through labor camps, to Buchenwald. Today, as a citizen of Israel, I cannot accept the systematic destruction of cities, towns, and refugee camps. I cannot accept the technocratic cruelty of the bombing, destroying and killing of human beings. I hear too many familiar sounds today, sounds which are being amplified by the war. I hear ?dirty Arabs? and I remember ?dirty Jews.? I hear about ?closed areas? and I remember ghettos and camps. I heard ?two-legged beasts? and I remember ?Untermenschen.? I hear about the tightening the siege, clearing the area, pounding the city into submission and I remember suffering, destruction, death, blood and murder? Too many things in Israel remind me of too many other things from my childhood.?

The horrors that are happening in Gaza, where people are trapped with no escape, being bombed and attacked by one of the most powerful armies in the world, cannot be excused by saying that to criticise Israel is to be anti-semitic.

If it comes down to sides then I know that I am absolutely on the side of the Palestinian civilians in Gaza and hope to be demonstrating again at the weekend to try and put pressure on the gov here to condemn the horrific bombings and to show solidarity with the Palestinians.

First I'm not going to call you a self hater. In fact your post was both eloquent and thought provoking and insightful. I have heard all teh anti zionist arguments from the SWP itself whilst there. I just don't happen to agree with them.

But I do disagree with you here. We dont have to equate "Israel with Jews". Hasmas do it for us. I wonder if you heard the threat from the Hamas leader today to "kill Jewish children worldwide"? this was not a trheat to Israeli children but to Jewish children. As this is mumsnet may I presume you may have children ? As you are Jewish those children are Jewish whetehr or not you practice. Hamas have therefore made you a target. I wonder how this makes you feel as a jew. That no matter how far you dissasociate yourself from your religion, your people and your country, you will always , Kate, be a Jew and therefore the target of hatred. I wonder if the SWP would defend you in time of need?

Kate -I did not say that anti Israel is anti Jewish in my posts about teh SWP. You did and are inferring this. I said that the SWP is antisemitic and made and make anti semitic comments. I gave you examples from my direct experience. Why are you dismissing these and talking about anti zionism is anti semitism.

For rthe record I ahve not equatred anti zionims with anti semitism as I actually agree on this front with you. Not all anti zionists are anti semites. Far from it. Some do have genuine political truck with Israel and not with Judaism. But that does not change the fact that many in Hamas and in the arab world are anti semitic and that I thnk the SWP is too. Sorry but there it is. This partly explains your post about teh creation of zionism and its thesis that Jews cannot live safely side by side with the nations of the world. I inserterd teh word safely as of course the Jews can live in other countries and have always done so but in order to be safe from persecution they need a homeland. This is not racism - just a simple fact and an indictment on the rest of the world in fact which had failed to protect the Jewish people throughout the centuries from murder .

That's very cynical Kate. It is possoble to merge political motives with humanitarian ones. And yes,so mistakes were made. They always will be while human beings make tough decisions. So, what now?

During the 6 month ceasefire (before Hamas fired any rockets) Israel still continued to block ANY humanitarian aid going into Gaza. Food supplies, medicine, even paper, pencils for childen to use. This is hardly going to inspire Hamas to continue with a caesefire.
Peace was never to be.

And Kate -I wonder whether those same palestinians you are marching to defend will care if and when you ever ( god forbid) need somewhere to run . Like it or not Israel is a mandated state - a legal entity and every jew should be grateful for its existance. I know for example that I can watch the "rise" of the BNP knowing that at the very very least i have somewhere to run should their rise continue and their ugly intentions turn to me.

Yes. That 'kill Jewish children worldwide' is hard to get beyond, isn't it?

FWIW, having come out of a long period believing some highly stylized things about Israel in what I would call the 'Christian Zionist' movement, I absolutely refuse to choose sides.

I no longer believe that the state of Israel has an alieniable mandate from God Himself which means that they are free from criticism, and I no longer fear that to fail to support them no matter what they do is to disobey God.

I abhor their policy of assassination, and cannot but be cynical at some of the timing of this action politically.

BUT, I cannot stand in solidarity with the residents of Gaza while they also continue to do stupid, destructive things that do not and will never change their situation.

My sympathy is with the people in Gaza who are often being bullied by Hamas into being in the line of fire, and with the people of Israel who have only survived because their authorities have chosen to build them shelters from the bombs that rain down on them.

I can't see that the answer is war. I understand it, really I do. But it's not going to work, and moreover, Hamas are savvy enough to make sure that every civilian casualty is forefront in our minds. Yes, they put civilians in harm's way, but Israel know this and still shoot. What can it ever acheive but grievance upon grievance?

I do not call for Israel to cease fire. I call Israel and Hamas to cease fire and stop this endless, bloody mess. I know they won't. I'm afraid that the fear and loathing on both sides go deeper than can ever be fully resolved - and that it serves the purposes of the US and a number of Arab nations to keep the situation as charged as ever.

But, good God, I wish I could do what I do when my kids are fighting, and tell them to go and sit on their own for a while, calm down and then come back and talk it out.

Well Lisalisa I think that is an incredibly racist comment - the idea that Jews cannot live safely side by side with others - so what is it about jews or is it just everyone else? Try replacing the word jew with 'black' or 'white' - should they have a homeland - honestly that's what makes me so angry the inherent racism not just about palestinians but about jews as well.
It reminds me when many years ago I joined the ujs at univ and received a whole load of literature which at first I thought frighteningly had come from the NF - many pamphlets all saying ' you are a jew and you are different and you might as well accept it' - what a pile of disgusting crap!

And actually when faced with anti-semitism some of us want to fight it - I don't agree with Hamas but do you know i have some understanding (and please note I do not agree) of those comments when the Israeli state and it's might purports to speak for all jews.

I'm going to leave this thread for the moment as I'm getting so outraged I'm no longer articulate - so hope at least to see some of you demonstrating for human rights on sat.

IIRC Annie Lennox's children have a Jewish Israeli father.

Will her march to prevent Israel from defending itself from 'kill Jews' Hamas keep her children safe?

Or will the 'maternal line' law apply?

lisalisa, in many ways I agree with you. Yes, after everything has happened Jewish people do need a strong defender. And perhaps if I was Jewish and had lost family in the Holocaust I would be thinking like you. But I hope I would be able to have compassion for the innocent victims, and I hope I would be able to recognise that my need for security was coming at a huge cost to people who I had no quarrel with.

KayHarker, may I say that's an exceptionally intelligent and well reasoned post. I whole heartedly agree with you.

kate - this line from that letter you quoted: "The horrors that are happening in Gaza, where people are trapped with no escape, being bombed and attacked by one of the most powerful armies in the world, cannot be excused by saying that to criticise Israel is to be anti-semitic" still resonates today. How dreadful.

I was going to go on the march but couldn't for various reasons. I met my neighbour coming back from it though. She is Jewish, her sister lives in Israel. And still she marched.