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Original poster

Demonstration against Israeli bombing of Gaza in London on Saturday.

810 replies

SmilleysPeople · 31/12/2008 10:57

If anyone is intersted.

It's at 12.30pm along Embankment, nearest tubes Embankment and Charing Cross.

It's being organised by Palestinian Solidarity Campaign, Stop the War Coaltion and numerous other groups.

I will bump this sporadically, but if anyone else would like to help promote this, plaese bump too.

I will be there.

OP posts:
Original poster
SmilleysPeople · 31/12/2008 12:42

Bump

OP posts:
OhYouBadBadKitten · 31/12/2008 13:13

thanks for this - I'll consider it.

donnie · 31/12/2008 16:29

bump

BouncingTurtle · 31/12/2008 17:34

Bump

Won't be able to make it though.

Original poster
SmilleysPeople · 31/12/2008 22:22

Thanks for bumping.

OP posts:
Poins · 01/01/2009 12:00

Can you do a joint protest against Hamas bombing Israel - which started this round of violence?

Tortington · 01/01/2009 12:00

oooh, you will be on spooks

Original poster
SmilleysPeople · 01/01/2009 14:35

You can if you like Poins, but I will not be joining it.

OP posts:
wannaBe · 01/01/2009 14:39

what guarantees are there that it will be peaceful.

I don't necessarily agree with what Israel are doing but what is a demonstration about it in London going to achieve exactly?

AnarchyAunt · 01/01/2009 14:42

It allows you to stand up and be counted.

donnie · 01/01/2009 17:44

bump

Monkeytrousers · 01/01/2009 21:20

Against what though. Hamas is an extremist, misognous, murderous organisation.

They are the ones that kept firing mortars into Israel last week. Now when Israel respond, they are the villians.

If someone breaks into a tigers enclosure to throw stons at the tiger and the tiger then mauls it, do you blame the tiger?

I have a lot of symapthy for the palestinan cause, but not Hamas' agenda. It is they who set up camp in residential districts, using women and children as shields.

It is possible to have sympathy with both sides. Taking sides only ensures a solutuon will never be found. Hamas has vowed to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Just how are they supposed to act? Are they not supposed to defend themselves?

AnarchyAunt · 01/01/2009 21:22

A tiger is an animal.

Not a civilised nation.

Not too sure about the comparison myself.

Monkeytrousers · 01/01/2009 21:47

It's an analogy. And what are humans, if not animals - moral ones yes, but animals non the less? All animals have an instinct to survive. These two countires are locked into a primeval battle. Adding to justifications of one is denying the inherent humanity of the other. And surely both sides have the same human rights? Those who suppport one are demonising the other. How is that helpful?

All I'm saying is taking sides like this actually adds to the problem. I'm sure most people think they are doing the opposite. The road to hell paved with good intentions and all that.

It might seem like a god moral cause, but taking sides is actually the opposite. There is no integrety in Hamas. Them tying the Palestinian cause to have a home land - the same as the Israeli's - to their own, does the latter a great diservice.

There is little difference between the two sides. The sooner we can all see that the better imho.

wannaBe · 01/01/2009 22:15

I agree with mt.

One of the top figures in hamas has been killed tonight. He had been calling for suicide bombings against Israelie targets. Do those protesting against Israel agree with the use of women and children as suicide bombers then? because to disagree with one means surely that you agree with the other.

Marching against what israel are doing you are essentially saying "I agree that it is right to use suicide bombers to kill israelies." Good luck with that, but I for one would never want to put my name to that.

Monkeytrousers · 01/01/2009 22:38

Thank's WannaBe.

Honesty, I'm not arguing against anyone's right to have an opinion. I am just asking you to think about it a bit harder before going for the easiest opinion and taking sides.

If I get called patronising, etc for that, I don;t mind.

Original poster
SmilleysPeople · 01/01/2009 22:51

I sometiems think it is imporatnt to take sides, if you feel one side has been systematically oppressed and persucuted for decadesby a racist facist US backed state, then I think it is fair enough to whant to speak out for them even if you disgaree with thier recent alignement with an extremist group, which whilst disageeing with, you can underatnd due to thier desparation and hopelessness.

Let's remeber Nelson mandala was jailed as a terrorist, and has docuamneted that he had moved his position to support violent attacks, and was indeeded planning some when jailed, as he felt it was the only way to bring about the end of aparteid.

Also he has visited palestian and declared it and even worse example of aparteid than SA.

This is ceratinly not and equal struggle, with equal greivances, and suffering, I will demonstate beacuse I find it shameful that the world has allowed the Palestinians to suffer like this for so many years.

This is about so much more than Hamas and thier rockets.

OP posts:
Monkeytrousers · 01/01/2009 23:56

Systematically oppresed? You think the Jews have not experience this? Even if you think you should squabble over degrees, do you really think it helps or sustains the deadlock. Because that's what it is.

Israeli or Palestinian, if you support a humaniatian settlement, you must come agree to a non-partisan perspective - a humanitarian not political perspective. And that means believing that no Israeli or Palestinian is any better or worse than the other.

The Palestiniam people do live in despair, most of them women and children. But Hamas is no friend of theirs.

Original poster
SmilleysPeople · 02/01/2009 00:21

I agree about Hamas, they are doing a great diservice to the Palestinian cause.
I also agree that no Israeli/Palestinian is any better or worse than another.

And of course I know the jews have experienced systematic persecustion, but that does not give them the right to then persecute others. In this context it is irrelevant.

It is the state of Israel and it's policies that oppress, and it's backing by the US in this, that I feel I must speak against.

Until the oppression is really recognised by the world and presure can be put on the US and Israel, then the persecution of the Plaestinians will continue as it has for decades.

The Israeli's have all the cards, the army, the power, the land, money, support from the most powerful nation in the world, the Palestinans have nothing. Thier plight is hopeless and hopelessness and despair, unfortunately will lead to desparate, terrible acts. This is not unique to the Plaestinians, it is a characteristic of the human psyche.

Your arguemnt of not taking sides, baffles me. Would you have adovated not taking sides with the oppressed black people in SA?? The Plaestinian situation has been likened to this by many.

Imagine for a moment, if blacks were still oppressed in SA and had taken to random acts of terrorism against civilian whites (which could have been a likely scenario) so the white governemnt bombed the townships killing 100x times more balck people women and children, but justified this due to 'necessary security' for the white popluation.

Would you have remained impartial? Would the barbaric acts of yuung desparate black youths have caused yuo to feel the white governemnt had a right to bomb townships? Did you feel there was no power discreapancy and oppressed group in SA that needed support and recognition and pressure on the government from the rest of the world?

Of course it's not exactly the same, but it's not entirely different either.

No black SA was/is any better than any white SA, but the system favoured one group, a group that felt hopeless and was despairing, which led to culture of ugly violence that exists in the townships today. If you systematically oppress poeple you eventaully brutalise them.

That's why I take a side and why I speak out in a small, insignifcant, probably ineffective way. But I'll continue.Sometimes a group does need to be sided with.

OP posts:
donnie · 02/01/2009 08:18

who is a friend to the Palestinian people then Monkeytrousers? I really want you to answer that one.

The US? the UK? the UN? who?

Monkeytrousers · 02/01/2009 08:42

I don't know Donnie. But Hama's certainly isn't. I don't have a solution to this problem, being a nobody on a parenting forum. But I can see the uselessness of taking sides, if what you are hoping for is some kind of end to the violence.

The only thing that will begin to fix things is time, and that was the thing Hama's did not want to happen, hence their shelling Israel and starting this round of violence. Just because Hama's is not

SP, I'm at work today but will respond to your post later

Monkeytrousers · 02/01/2009 08:45

Oops. Dunno what happened there.

Just because Hama's is not supported by the US or UK doesn't mean they are worthy. That just strikes me as self hatred, and imperialist guilt. Still no reason to support Hamas extremists even if you don't support Israel.

Original poster
SmilleysPeople · 02/01/2009 09:47

Try to separate the Palestinians from Hamas. Hamas are a recent development in thier story, thier persecuton has gone on for decades before.

OP posts:
chisigirl · 02/01/2009 09:53

agree with Poins.

elkiedee · 02/01/2009 14:22

I'm intending to try and get to tomorrow's demonstration, which isn't in support of Hamas, it is against the bombing of the people who live on the Gaza strip.