Why didn't the Allies bomb Auschwitz

[Gwenick]

Just read this link

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4175045.stm

It's all very well asking now - "should we have bombed it" - but then what would we be saying if we HAD - it would probably be something along the lines - of "OMG look how many innocent Jews we killed trying to 'save' them".

What about those Jews who survived, and have gone to on to get married and have children, or those that survived and were reunited with family members?? How would the families feel now if we'd bombed them?? I don't think it would have helped bombing them - the Nazi's would only have found somewhere/somehow else to persecute the Jews.

Opinions please (nice controversial one for a Sunday afternoon ;-)

Sorry there is!!

here

crunchie, I have enjoyed reading your messages. I think you are straigtforward and honest about your feelings. Your comment about hidden racism in the UK struck a chord with me. I have a friend who is a fairly liberal jew - a bit like you probably. She has lived in London all her life, as have her parents.

I was asking her recently whether she'd consider moving away from London as she has transferrable skills (she's a social worker). She said she felt safe and accepted in London, but feared if she lived in many areas of the UK, especially rural areas, she would encounter far more racist attitudes and she would feel personally threatened. I have to admit I was surprised she felt so strongly about this, although I know racism is sadly part of British life.

crunchie, I have enjoyed reading your messages. I think you are straigtforward and honest about your feelings. Your comment about hidden racism in the UK struck a chord with me. I have a friend who is a fairly liberal jew - a bit like you probably. She has lived in London all her life, as have her parents.

I was asking her recently whether she'd consider moving away from London as she has transferrable skills (she's a social worker). She said she felt safe and accepted in London, but feared if she lived in many areas of the UK, especially rural areas, she would encounter far more racist attitudes and she would feel personally threatened. I have to admit I was surprised she felt so strongly about this, although I know racism is sadly part of British life.

It makes you wonder whether we will ever be rid of racism and anti-semitism in our society when even our govt doesn't seem able to get to grips with it. Labour defend campaign posters How could they not have realised it would cause offence?

I don't know I remember some of the TORY ad campaigns back in 1997 could well have been very offensive to Christians - Tony Blair showed with 'devil' eyes - and most people know that he considers himself to be a Christian. I as a Christian would be very offended if someone was to do a campaign poster with people with 'devil' eyes - and indeed HATED seeing that advert on huge billboards around the country

I can't see what's wrong with the hypnosis poster, all they're showing is Michael Howard as a hypnotist - does that particular link have any anti-Jewish history? (If so, I'm not aware of it.)

But the pigs one - FGS. And they're supposed to be such consummate spin-masters.

Oops, just had another look at the report and the poster, and realised the "hypnotist" one is supposed to be depicting Howard as Fagin.

Again, FGS. If that is really supposed to be a Fagin character, wtf do they think they're on? I can't believe supposedly intelligent people produced this and didn't spot that it might be considered offensive.

Where did I get my info from? American Jews on an site I moderate. They are what you would term Zionists, I suppose. Any Jew who for whatever reason shows any sympathy for the Palestinians, or who will not accept Israel on religious grounds is a self hating Jew.

Movements like the Neutrei Karta are particularly hated by them.

Also, I lived in Israel for a year, and for a while lived under an Orthodox area of Jerusalem called Har Nof. The Jewish people we worked for were not Orthodox, and they hated Orthodox as they refuse to become Israeli citizens, so do not pay taxes nor join the Army for national service.

Sorry meant to say they hated ultra-Orthodox, who live in Mea Shearim, these are the people who do not do taxes etc!! Har Nof was despised for the double standards of the Orthodox who live there.

I think one of the strongest lessons of the holocaust, and of Hitler's time in power in general, is how a bullying minority can eventually 'infect' an otherwise reasonable population to such an extent that they come to believe that horrific attitudes such as those which Nazis had towards the jews (and other victims) are normal and perfectly acceptable. It's the basic premise behind most playground bullying, and can give social legitimacy to many people's uninformed prejudices.

I personally think it's a natural human condition to be wary of things you don't know or understand, and the only way to fight the rise of vicious prejudice is to increase our knowledge of the facts about the holocaust and other genocides such as Rwanda, Stalin's Russia etc. I believe that 20th century history should be compulsory from a fairly early age in school, beacuse it's only by studying what went before that we can hope to understand the situation we are in now and how we can prevent such atrocities in the future.

Bodies such as the BNP seem on the surface appealing to people who feel hard done by society precisely because they appeal to their inbuilt natural prejudice against 'the unknown'. If you know little of the history of 'jews', or 'blacks' or 'pakis' or any other minority, it's easier to justify stigmatising them and blaming them for your troubles.

I guess the lesson we should learn is that ganging up on other people because we don't know them and don't understand them is the start of the slippery slope. Which is why I agree with the reasoning of most of the posters here but why I also find the witch-hunt surrounding Gwenick - who I don't for one minute believe is racist - appalling.

Did anyone hear thought for the day on Radio 4 this morning? I'm sure to balls it up in the repeating, but the general gist was that to identify constantly with the victims and to paint Nazi Germany as the ultimate evil does us all a diservice and makes it more likely to happen again. The biggest thing we should realise is that the perpertrators of these crimes against humanity were ordinary respectable people just like us. THAT is where the real danger lies, assuming that we could never be capable of that.

This chilling thought reminded me of that scientific experiment on the obedience to authority in 1974 by Milgram - best to follow the link because I'm not sure that I can describe the experiment properly but the outcome was that 65% of people followed authority to give what they believed to be a lethal electric shock to an unseen (but very well heard) participant. Some did protest and stop the experiment, but none of them protested until well over the voltage to cause serious pain/harm.

That frightens me senseless, but at the same time I think we should all be drawn to understand that part of human nature so we can stop things like this happening ever ever again.

Yes, very chilling, the thought that mass populations can be manipulated almost without realising it.

Yes I heard that thought for the day, thought it was one of the more challenging and thoughtful reflections on the holocaust. Of course none of us imagine we'd ever be the perpetrators of evil, do we? And I'm sure the people who were, never thought of themselves in that way either.

Facinating stuff Casmie. I have seen a film about someone trying to see if young teenagers would join a 'youth army' and how far they would go against former friends. I guess it is stuff like this that makes me want everyone to 'own' the Holocaust, then we all identify with it more.

However as I said lisalisa I understand your viewpoint due to the sheer numbers involved it was a jewish tragedy.

Ocean, by your 'friends' explaination I am a self-hating jew, and do you know what I am proud to be so as I cannot condone the situation in Israel right now from either side. I am as anti the Israel politicians as I am the palestinians.

In some ways I wish I didn't have strong religious beliefs as almost every war, killing, etc has always come from religious differences. It seems to me that the 10 commandments which Christian, Jew, and Muslim all have as the cornerstone of their faith are thrown out of the window when it suits. It makes me want to cry.

I think the concept of self-hating Jew is a fair enough one in terms of the way that psychologically, persecuted groups can take on the views of their persecutors - so women can feel inferior to men because that's what society is telling them to feel, someone else (on the other thread I think) mentioned the idea of self-hating homosexuals, we all know the concept of Uncle Tom, taking on the racist ideas of white society about the supposed inferiority of black people, and so on. But the disturbing thing of self-hating Jew imo, is that it is too often used in order to dismiss genuine political opposition to the disgraceful treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli government. If any non-Jewish critic of the Israeli government is anti-Semitic, and any Jewish critic is a self-hater with serious psychological problems, then that lets Israel off the hook, doesn't it?

I dislike any form of intolerance based on race or religion. If you meet someone, hat them for who they are, fine. But to pre-judge a whole race/religion of people because of the actions of one or two is dangerous.

In the past I have had bad experiences with Pakistanis(rip-off landlord), Jews(didn't pay us), Christians (abuse/bullying), Muslims (tried scare tactics for money) and those who would claim no religion.

Nasty people come from all walks of life.

OFF TOPIC

• but seen as though you're reading it at the moment Ocean - sorry about last night - didn't mean to leave so abrubtly - broadband connection suddenly played up and it was so late I could't be bothered hanging around to see how long it would take to work again!

S'ok, I thought it was something like that!!

Caligua I see what you are saying, and I do think that certain policies of the Isreali government don't sit well with me. However although I said I am proud to be a self-hating jew, I actually don't think I am. To be a jew you don't HAVE to believe in the state of Israel (although most do), therefore why should I say I am a self-hating Jew. I am allowed to critise and comment on things and I think this terminology is really bad. Just becasue I don't agree with a foreign government's stance on a particular political issue, does not mean I hate myself or my religion.

Perhaps I differ from some jews in that I see my Judaism as a religion not a nationality/race.

Well you don't sound like you hate yourself, Crunchie!

I may have misunderstood Ocean's earlier messages, but I hope you know that not all ultra-Orthodox Jews are anti-Israel. And many that are, still work for Israel for humanitarian or religious reasons. For example, my ultra-Orthodox Hassidic uncles who do their military service with the Hevra Kaddisha. These are the people who prepare bodies for burial, the people you see on TV clearing up after the bombers, gathering every scrap of human tissue that they can find in order to give decent burial. Orthodox Jews also work for the Magen David Adom (the Israeli equivalent of the International Red Cross, who won't employ Israelis) - who, incidentally, were the first 'foreign' agency to send personel and materiel help to the tsunami area.