Shouldn’t this funeral director be arrested? *MNHQ warning - distressing content*

[MissyB1]

I will post the link (hopefully works). Surely there must be something she could be charged with? And her “business” needs closing down! It’s just beyond words!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gjr0ylenzo

It’s not the BBC’s place to say “we think this behaviour is a mental illness”. They can’t diagnose that. They mentioned the history of the stillbirth, which provides additional context, but of course they can’t just speculate on the mental health of people.

It deserves compassion, not judgement and condemnation. I expected better from Mumsnet

You expect a site made up predominantly of parents, including bereaved ones to all be ok about this story?

Yes this, it's the feeling that she deceived parents to do things that she wanted to do with those babies. Yes maybe she didn't mean any harm - but she did do harm. Fair enough she can't be charged with any crime it seems, but I do feel her business needs closing, at least until she gets help for her mental health anyway.

Jesus! What have I just read?! That is enough internet for today.

It sounds like there needs to be more regulation of the sector. Sadly, as this is never cheap.

There seems to be a huge under reaction to this. Even the headline of the BBC article doesn’t do the horror of this justice.

Some quite mild reactions on here too. I’m really surprised.

No one made much of a fuss when that "average" 40 something man raped Amber Gibson's corpse after he found her murdered. This woman is not doing normal things but it's clear she thinks she is helping and providing a service to these families, to be kind.

I agree with this. I went to visit a relative in the chapel of rest once and although distressing it was also nice (if that makes sense) very calm, quiet and respectful. The thought of walking into some random living room to find them stuck in a chair in front of the tv with another dead body on the sofa is beyond comprehension.

I had to google that , poor Amber

how odd the abuser was sentenced for concealing the body and hindering justice not for sexual abuse post death . Shocking for a “developed” country

No, she shouldn’t be arrested as she hasn’t broken a law - as clearly set out in the article.

Agreed she sounds like an utter head case, and what’s she’s done is disgusting, but you can’t arrest people just because you want to. There has to be grounds for arrest - I.e. a broken law.

Good point, but what did the parents "explicitly" request? People know what they want to see on the day, but probably don't do into background details unless their religion has particular demands. Apart from the storage temperature there isn't a right or wrong way to store and handle the dead. It's entirely subjective and limited to what we think and know about the standard operating procedures of such industries.

So how do you determine that a service you received is all bad when so little of the process and its terms and conditions were discussed or agreed on, especially when any passive expectations the customers had would have been based on popular opinion rather than facts?

That's because you can't abuse the dead. It's one of the conditions of being dead.

Necrophilia is very different from perverting the course of justice but the penalty for the latter is on a sliding scale, meaning prosecutors can seek the punishment that fits even if the label doesn't.

But what she was doing was so so so far beyond the norm of what people would expect, I think it’s on her to make that clear to people. This isn’t a case of small differences between different funeral homes that might not get spelled out to every family.

”messing with” dead bodies is chargeable offence in other countries though (UK is very specific on what was done to the corpse hence the issue in Ambers case )

at least he was convicted for something

I think it's because there isn't a specific crime of defiling a corpse in Scots Law so the could only charge him with those crimes, even though they seem quite minor.

Poor Amber. I was thinking about her earlier today after reading this thread. What an awful life and death she had

WTF!!!!! She should be in the psychiatric unit. Totally weird and unacceptable.

No riots and violent outrage over that girl, obviously.

Oh gosh, I remember Amber Gibson. Absolutely tragic. 🥺

Obviously this case is very different, but nevertheless traumatic for the parents who've already lost their children, and this is yet another layer added to their grief.

@somethingnewandexciting Exactly.

I agree her actions caused harm, but without a crime, harm is subjective—it depends on the victim’s perception, the intent, and who the actor was. Consider the way we tolerate things from a child or friend that would offend us from a stranger. The funeral director’s mental health and trauma matter in judging whether her actions were malicious. An awareness of the persons background helps to understand their reasoning behind their actions, which is important when seeking closure. The parents’ pain was real, although the initial shock could temporarily account for some of it; if the director had been cold and objectifying, it would feel worse. More likely, she was delusional, believing she was caring for them as children. In their place, if I could see her intent wasn’t to harm, I’d feel less pain. If something like this had been done to parents like Fred and Rosemary West, they wouldn’t have cared in the slightest.

I do see what you are saying but to me I just think that if the parents involved had wanted their babies to be used (for want of a better word) like this, being put in bouncers and whatnot then they'd have taken them home and done it themselves.

I don't think I'd have ever in my wildest dreams have come up with the person in the position of trust, that had been entrusted with the most precious thing they could be given doing it instead.

In their place, if I could see her intent wasn’t to harm, I’d feel less pain.

I honestly don't think that's a judgement you can make unless you are in the exact same situation.

But her needs and feelings are being put above those of the unsuspecting parents and when she has at best, been guilty of abuse of a corpse, she should be facing some consequences.

If we stopped prosecuting people with MH issues, no-one would get a record and it would be open season to commit crime.

The parents have not been listened to here at all.

I don’t think she would have perceived it as playing with them or doing something the family didn’t want.

When she offered a homely service, looking after them as if they were still alive, until it’s time to say your last goodbye, she is thinking about having the tv on, cuddling them etc. Having them in a Moses basket, baby bouncer. There won’t have been any ‘tugging about’, I’m sure she will have cared for them as if they were alive. That’s kind of the point.

Of course some of the parents were imagining what a PP heard from a funeral director- nursery rhymes, nightlights and so on. They were horrified.

But what she was doing was so so so far beyond the norm of what people would expect, I think it’s on her to make that clear to people.

She had a Facebook page and most of her trade came via word of mouth. Clearly the parents knew where the babies were because they visited.

It seems weird beyond belief but it seems this was a service parents wanted and understood.

It can’t have been one that every parent understood, because one was deeply distressed by walking in and seeing her baby in a bouncer.