Fuel Protests

[TwoIfBySea]

For those of us who don't have a choice, for those of us who don't live anywhere near a place with public transport that is reliable and frequent. For those of us who don't have a lorry to drive into London to join the protests against the ridiculous cost that will hit the lowest waged and not the section of society it is aimed at and who have enough to see the current fuel price as inconvenient.

There are petitions of which that is one, so while I doubt government will give a hoot it is at least something. There were 59k signatures when I signed earlier and, like the fuel prices it has shot up!

Sorry, I fueled my car today, and am still feeling like I got mugged. Diesel has gone up far more than unleaded yet is more "efficient" so lets have none of that environment talk.

MrsGuyofGisborne - we're not talking about pretend rural areas like the commuter belt of southern England where people with money go for pretty houses and a pretty view.

We're talking about the real rural areas. You know the ones where the commuters with money like to have their second homes. The ones which need to be kept looking good for the tourists. The ones which need people living and working in them to keep them healthy and vibrant and looking like they do. Not to mention the agricultural economy.

Many parts of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are like a different world. I sense a distinct agenda in London, and even in the central belt to be honest, to force depopulation of the more remote areas. It would solve a lot of problems eh?

And you know what, the only reason that these areas don't have viable public transport links is because they wouldn't make any money. The bus service I use is heavily subsidised by the local council, otherwise it wouldn't run. Town dwellers dictate to us how we should live, based on how they live, and that is the root cause of many of the problems in rural areas.

I don't understand why an expression of concern for those living in desperate poverty in the third world is being understood to dismiss all the problems of everybody who lives outside cities in this country

"I don't think there should be a different fuel tax rate for people in rural areas vs urban.

First of all, it would be impossible to administer - open to too much judgment and arbitrary linedrawing."

That would be just like any other system of taxation then. What's the difference. We get help with childcare if DH works 16 hours but not if he works 15 hours. Where's the logic there - we need the childcare all the same. Criteria would be drawn up - if you meet them you pay reduced tax, if you don't you don't. Simple.

The alternative which is being promoted up here is to have reduced rates of tax at the petrol stations in very rural areas. My worry there is that some people would drive out of the towns/cities specifically to fill up somewhere cheaper, which would just make matters worse.

for the same reason that some thing that not comparing the situation in the UK to more dire situations throughout the world somehow means no one cares about these situations or they can all go screw themselves.

there's this perception that everyone who lives in the countryside lives a life of luxury.

that just makes me laugh and cry at the same time, because i've beat on and on on a tin drum about how British food producers are being put out of business and the effect that is going to have on the British population very soon - it already is.

the attitude, 'well they can just chuck it in and do something else' and not realising what that means for EVERYONE on this island, no matter where they live.

over 70% of all British farmers are tenants. they are not homeowners with anything to sell up.

MANY of those who live in work in rural areas - not commuter belts, but real rural areas - are seasonal workers, largely Eastern European.

or crofters - more tenants.

so just telling them, 'oh, well, get a bike or move into town' is stupid and short-sighted.

do you really want to exacerbate the affordable housing crisis in cities with even more folks flooding in? after all the moany threads about services already stretched to the max in most urban areas?

there needs to be some serious, long-term thinking applied to the whole of the island.

no more cars for anyone isn't going to cut it.

that's why you're seeing fuel protests and the like.

Wendy - if not dismiss the problems, I do think there is a tendency to belittle them. But many people in rural areas are living in real hardship, and fuel costs are making this worse and worse.

Second home owners driving up prices cause fewer permanent residents. This causes shops to shut and public transport etc. to be withdrawn because there isn't enough usage. The community becomes more and more isolated.

These are not people who have chosen to move to these areas - these are people whose families have lived there for generations. Why should they have to change their way of life to suit others? It is the people in towns and cities who have become divorced from reality, not the other way around.

Good post Expat.

They could have access to the DVLA database in all petrol stations to see the address a car is registered to...or issue all owners of cars in designated rural areas with a special ID card...or have a coloured flag on the tax disc...there could be ways round it, if the will was there.

That's exactly the kind of thing I was talking about when I said some kind of essential user-type scheme.

WendyWeber, if the DVLA database was available we'd see all the toffs registering their cars at their second homes in the country.

That is the problem.

The Green MP on Question Time said they wouldn't get rid of the tax on fuel but they would get rid of the yearly car tax. I would go for an idea like that, you pay more for the more you drive. But again that hammers all of us who live outwith areas with public transport. She then said that they would use the money gathered to sort out the public transport in rural areas. Just like Labour had promised to do 10 years ago!

And if people are really bothered about poverty in the third world then a direct debit donation to orginisations such as UNICEF or Save The Children is worth more than hand-wringing over the rest of us.

Knock yourselves out, I had to cut mine back to just giving a little amount to UNICEF each month as I can't afford to do any more at the moment. But if the people who are being rather sanctimonious over some on here gave just £5 per month it would actually make a difference.

Actions not yakking. And like I said, opinionating before understanding the full picture.

I don't imagine there will ever be a bus route that I could use to get to work.

Door to door is 15 miles/20-25 minutes. By bus I would have to get one of the 2-hourly buses, to a town waaaay past where I go to work, which would take 30-40 minutes; then hang around for another bus going back in the opposite direction but on a different road; then have a 10-minute walk.

I work different hours almost every shift and if I didn't get out on time (it's a call centre) I would probably miss the bus home and have to get a taxi.

As it is I'm spending 40-50 minutes and at least £4 on each round trip and cycling would be impossible.

(The good part is that I get to see the new lambs and calves, and sileageing and haymaking, and play-dodge-the-rabbit at dusk)

How do you know we don't donate, TwoIf?

I don't, but at the same time those of us who are being accused of selfishness on here might do so as well. We can all judge.

I just get tired of sanctimonious hand-wringing sometimes. Just because I am concerned more with the poor in this country doesn't mean I don't care about the poor in other countries - same goes for a lot of people.

I wish I had a choice, I really do, but I don't. I'm glad the Greens have made their stance clear though. If Labour put the money they're fleecing off the motorist in public transport there wouldn't be a peep of protest.

Are you in a rural area as well Wendy?

FWIW, I don't think the problem is restricted to rural areas. Badly planned areas on the edges of towns and cities suffer as well. And I don't think laziness is exclusive to urban areas.

When I lived in England I lived 3 miles from my work. There was no feasible way I could get a bus to and from work, even with flexi-time. The times just did not work out. And with the best will in the world I wasn't prepared to waste time walking 6 miles each day when I had a baby son at home. So I used my car.

Here I am very lucky indeed to live near a rural bus route - it was a major factor in moving here. I do wish more people would use the bus, then perhaps they would invest in a more regular service. Unfortunately though, many people are disinclined to adapt their lifestyles even a little bit in order to use public transport. It's such a complicated picture.

Twinklemegan: "I don't think there should be a different fuel tax rate for people in rural areas vs urban.

First of all, it would be impossible to administer - open to too much judgment and arbitrary linedrawing."

That would be just like any other system of taxation then. What's the difference. We get help with childcare if DH works 16 hours but not if he works 15 hours. Where's the logic there - we need the childcare all the same. Criteria would be drawn up - if you meet them you pay reduced tax, if you don't you don't. Simple.

The alternative which is being promoted up here is to have reduced rates of tax at the petrol stations in very rural areas. My worry there is that some people would drive out of the towns/cities specifically to fill up somewhere cheaper, which would just make matters worse.

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Arbirtrary line-drawing is screwing the same people over and over. You would think we had a bottomless pit or something, and weren't affected by the changes in the economy.

Those of us who are subsidising have achieved their cushion by hard work. What insentive is there for anyone to work hard if their they are going to be taxed until the pips squeak?

The point of putting fuel prices up is to cut back on consumption across the board, It is not reasonable to assume that one person's consumption is more justified than another's. By using cost, the individual can make that decision for themselves. There is no reason for anyone to be protected from country-wide or global economics.

We still, for now, live in a free country.

But the current round of price rises is down to speculation, not conservation, isn't it?

Oh, yes, ST, let's just let laissez-faire and the all-revered 'free market' decide who lives and dies.

History has taught us nothing.

It is indeed Wendy. The very same speculators who caused the credit crunch, mortgage crisis or whatever you wish to call it.

They seem to be allowed to make their money and then b*gger off leaving the mess behind them.

"It is not reasonable to assume that one person's consumption is more justified than another's".

Well I'm very sorry, but the fuel consumption of a rural family, who need their one and only car to go to the doctors, go to work, buy food, etc. etc. is a hundred times more justified than the conspicuous consumption of three-car households living in an urban area. And I'd like to see you argue otherwise.

And incidentally, my family are very badly affected indeed by arbitrary line-drawing as we always fall just on the wrong side of the line.

Wasn't sure whether to post under this thread or on AIBU. Would it be unreasonable to think of somehow 'encouraging' hitch-hiking? Obviously would have to use judgement but I remember living in rural Worcs. in 70's & 80's and people did it. Even my Dad would offer lifts to people he didn't know if they looked 'respectable' Altho' as young daughter got warned off lifts with people I didn't know. He wasn't a dirty old man but someone who was old enough to remember WW2 petrol rationing. As a teenager it was something I did (usually with friend for safety reasons). Despite what the papers say most people aren't psychotic axe murders and in a weird old hippyish way think if done carefully it could be socially positive as well as a green thing to do (with no admin). Would you ever offer or take a lift?

I think it's unlikely to catch unless it was a bit more regulated. Some sort of local car sharing scheme might be more successful.

Depends how high petrol prices go. I have spent time in a country where it was perfectly possible to flag down almost any passing moto and ask them to bring you where you want to go for the equivilant of 50p

I can see car sharing happening more often with the cost of fuel being split.

But for an awful lot of people, living in the country is a lifestyle choice. If they choose to live in an idyllic place, why should they get tax breaks over people who live in cities and are naturally more environmentally friendly wrt transportation?

Scienceteacher- who do you think's going to grow your food then? Many other people living in the countryside support the rural economy- it's all pretty interdependent.

If other people did not also live in the countryside, it would very difficult to justify providing services to the ever-decreasing number of farmers (decreasing because no-one wants to pay any proportion of their income on food any more, thereby pushing farmers out of business). You can't say that some people have a right to live in the countryside and others should just live in town- it sounds more like a KGB diktat than anything.