Fuel Protests

[TwoIfBySea]

For those of us who don't have a choice, for those of us who don't live anywhere near a place with public transport that is reliable and frequent. For those of us who don't have a lorry to drive into London to join the protests against the ridiculous cost that will hit the lowest waged and not the section of society it is aimed at and who have enough to see the current fuel price as inconvenient.

There are petitions of which that is one, so while I doubt government will give a hoot it is at least something. There were 59k signatures when I signed earlier and, like the fuel prices it has shot up!

Sorry, I fueled my car today, and am still feeling like I got mugged. Diesel has gone up far more than unleaded yet is more "efficient" so lets have none of that environment talk.

Hunker - I didn't know that about the VAT- that is shocking!

Given that the tax is a percentage, they are RAKING in the profits, and it's all unbudgeted bonanza - they really should lower the tax. But they won't, because it will help repay the borrowed money GB is hoping will keep us out of recession.

Did you know there isn't a fuel shortage? The reason the price is so high is because investors in the futures and options markets have bought up all the rights to it, to force the prices up so they can rake in extra profits.

Its all very well people saying don't use your car, but the rising fuel prices also add to the rising food prices, as we produce so little of our own food nowadays and have to transport it into Britain, which puts the prices up further, so even if you don't own a car the fuel prices affect you.

I think the tax we pay on fuel is ridiculous. in other countries where the tax is far lower (eg canada) they have kicked governments out for less!

And as for their latest idea, to increase road tax on older cars....how does that make sense to anyone- lets target the people who can't afford to buy brand new cars, and penalise them for not being able to afford to! Eh? The whole thing is a farce, the wheels are coming off this country! If the new car tax comes in, and the price of fuel continues to go up, I will not be able to afford to work- I have 3 children to drop in 3 seperate locations before driving the half hour to work with 2 dogs in the car, and even if I could get up at 5am and negotiate 6 different buses with dogs, toddlers and buggies I would then be unable to do house calls when I got to work (I'm a vet) So my 5 years training, at the taxpayers expense, and taxable salary will be wasted. Can't see how that will be particularly useful to the economy. we need help with the costs of living atm, not hindrances! I'm behind the people protesting- our government gets away with far too much because Britain just sits and grumbles!

"To reduce it from 70% to even a mere 50% would cost the Treasury about £7 billion "

I think you mean "To reduce it from 70% to even a mere 50% would save the taxpayers about £7 billion "

But what I was actually suggesting (without actually running the numbers -- apologies for sloppy posting) was that the tax be brought down so that level of forcast tax revenue is the same as it would be at 70% but with normal prices. Shouldn't effect Gordon's budget.

I don't really accept that it is Gordon's money and he has a right to it an my suggestion that he lower taxxes is somehow depriving him of what is rightfully his. His people can not afford to live on what they have let after paying his taxes. And HE needs to do something about it -- for the sake of the common people.

Fuck Gordon's budget. What about mine?

Try to keep your car at 2,000 RPM or less - makes your petrol go further. Also lowers your blood pressure if you drive at a steadier pace

I'm not particularly happy about paying £96 to fill up my car this week, but I think it would be wrong, for environmental reasons, to cut the tax on it.

The taxation system is how the government gets us to change behaviour (rather than banning things altogether), and to make sensible decisions about what car to buy, where to live etc.

We know that fuel prices have to go up as the resource becomes scarcer, and also with the current wisdom about CO2 emmissions.

I remember in the 70s when the price of oil took a hike, we were told that there was only 30 years left (and that was without thnking about China/India etc). Putting the price up meant that demand went down and the meant the known reserves would last longer. It also meant there was more money to pay for exploration.

hunker, I've started doing that - leaving earlier (a strange and exotic concept for me ), accelerating more gently and then driving at 50-60 and slowing down behind slower things instead of waiting desperately for a chance to pass.

I am right with you on the tax-on-tax VAT thing. Duty should be a fixed amount, not a percentage, and VAT should be levied on the fuel cost only, not the duty. (Has the Govt said what it's doing with all this windfall taxation it's raking in?)

Like I had said ScienceTeacher, if it was about the environment then diesel would be cheaper.

And my car uses a lot less fuel than budget aircraft taking people to their second homes every weekend.

Depends on the supply of diesel - how much of it comes out of the fractionating tower.

£96

I almost fell over the other week when I spend £55 to fill up an Astra.

I know, Athene. My usual fill up is around £70, and this time the little light had only just come on!

Fortunately, I only fill up about once a month.

I used to get c 500 miles out of £50 of diesel - the last £50 was after only 360

Athene: I'm not saying that the money is rightfully GB's but simply that reducing the tax rate on fuel will mean that either (a) the money has to be found from elsewhere (b) the PSBR will need to increase further or (c) other central government services will have to be reduced. It certainly wouldn't "save the taxpayers £7 billion" - the deficit would have to be found from somewhere else, and that would be from the taxpayers in one way or another, or am I missing something?

Cestlavie, what I'm trying to say is that because the price of petrol has risen so high the amount of tax they get is more than they would have previously forecast. So, to compensate, they could reduce the tax percentage down so that they still get the same amount of revenue they would have had had petrol prices not spiked into the sky. The government would have the same anmount of money, and we would pay a little bit less at the pump.

Oh, and if he was forced to reduce a bit of government waste that would be a good thing. ID cards? NHS computer system? I'm sure the list of potential place to save some waste is very long.

Apparently the Govt has received an extra billion pounds since the price of fuel started shooting up

The cost of the fuel in a litre is 45p at the moment; I don't know how much the retail margin is but the Govt is taking at least 100% in duty and VAT.

Wendy, roughy %70 of what you pay at the petrol station is tax.

Athene: that is a fair point, I guess arguably they could although I suspect if the price of oil had fallen to a similar degree that not many people would be arguing for the fuel tax level to go up... As a general rule though, I'd would be pretty wary of using a sudden change in specific economic conditions to change fiscal policy, especially in the short term and especially in response to commodity prices.

Can someone cleverer at maths than me (ie all of you) work out what petrol would be if they only charged VAT on the fuel, not the duty, please?

The harsh reality is that we are too dependent on oil, too dependent on cars and too selfish to want to change our behaviour and expectations.

Oil has been cheap for many, many years and now that developing nations, who rightly demand an increase in their standard of living and therefore require more oil base products, demand is outstripping supply. The West has had its way for too long at the expense of the poorer nations and the environment.

It is irresponsible of us to expect our profligate use of oil and natures other natural resources to continue unabash. We have to change our behaviour.

DH and I have now downgraded to one car, we use public transport and we walk.

People in this country have to change their attitude towards cars and the government has to invest in public transport infrastructure to enable most of us to be less dependent on cars.

There are lot of people who refuse to use public transport though and will only use their cars. Their attitude has to change and if it takes huge price increases to do so, then so be it imo. I will just cut back elsewhere because there is more at stake here than the money in my pocket. I want my children to grow up on a planet where our relationship with the environment and natural resources is symbiotic, not destructive.

But he is in the midst of a crisis. If he wants to head off a recession he needs most of the people to be able to have a little bit of money to spend. If people stop spending it will just spiral is faster and deeper into recession.

He spent today in Aberdeen negotiating the opening of two fields for production... like that's going to help in the near future. If he hadn't jacked up the taxes in the north sea more wells would still producing. It is too little too late.

Whilst I know this is part of rising oil prices, it's fuel prices that worry me

Whay will OAP's do in winter. Form a blocade of all those who have frozen to death? Because th consumers of this don't have as much power of lorry drivers it seems OK for prices to go up and up with little help from government

as lorry drivers.............

It isn't just about the price we pay at the pumps for our own fuel though is it? The knock-on effects of high fuel costs are surely felt in the prices of, well, everything that isn't bought where it is grown or manufactured.

I wouldn't mind the prices going up if we weren't paying VAT on the duty.

Actually, I'm interested to see how the increased fuel price effect the UK produce markets. If the cost of transporting fruit, veg, meat, cheese, whatever to the UK becomes a lot more, then perhaps local grown food will become more financially viable. Ironically, it could be good for our farmers. And our farmers could grow biofuels if petrol goes too high. Ironically there may be some benfits to higher prices for some of us.

I think increased prices will be the catalyst that gets us away from oil. But the increase has been too high too fast and fear it's going to bring on recession rather than change our behaviour in a gradual and workabe transition away from fossil fuels.

Opening up more oil fields is not the answer, easing up on the tax is, simply because there are so many taxes bleeding us dry. Typical of this Labour government, if something doesn't work just throw more at it - similar to the NHS which had money thrown at it and look at what a success that was, eh?

While everything is rocketing in price there is going to be anger, especially with all these stories of MPs lining their own pockets.

Fizzbuzz, according to Brown the OAPs can fill out the forms to claim their Winter Fuel Allowance if they don't want to freeze to death. Isn't that nice of him.