Fuel Protests

[TwoIfBySea]

For those of us who don't have a choice, for those of us who don't live anywhere near a place with public transport that is reliable and frequent. For those of us who don't have a lorry to drive into London to join the protests against the ridiculous cost that will hit the lowest waged and not the section of society it is aimed at and who have enough to see the current fuel price as inconvenient.

There are petitions of which that is one, so while I doubt government will give a hoot it is at least something. There were 59k signatures when I signed earlier and, like the fuel prices it has shot up!

Sorry, I fueled my car today, and am still feeling like I got mugged. Diesel has gone up far more than unleaded yet is more "efficient" so lets have none of that environment talk.

expat, I was thinking when I heard that, there is no way Scotland is getting independence now. Especially as up until recently the government swore we wouldn't make any money from our oil as it was the "wrong kind."

It's nothing to do with supply and demand. There is plenty of oil. As I said earlier, investors in futures and options have bought the rights to it.

I wouldn't have so much of a problem with the taxes if they would put them into public transport. Here in Bristol, the public transport is USELESS. From our house there is ONE bus route. If I wanted to go to the Mall at Cribbs it is fine. If I don't care how long it takes me to get there , and am prepared to wait an hour for a bus, as they bear no resemblance to the timetable.

Driving is no better - the city centre is gridlocked. And their answer is to charge people more, without giving them an option. I simply cannot get 3 children across town without using the car (and I need to for work). If I could, I would, as the driving is more stressful than you can possibly imagine.!

?

As demand goes up (ie add in newly industrialised countries), then the price goes up.

I heard that the oil producing countries can't understand the high prices, as they are producing sufficient oil, and aren't charging this amount for the barrels, but it is all tied up in futures and options and investments, which has artificially raised the price. Will see if I can find a link.

HAven't found a link, but further to hunker's point, on the BBC website it describes a litre of petrol as being;
Cost of petrol 48p
Duty 50p
VAT 17p

TOTAL - £1.15

so I have worked out that if VAT were only charged on the product, not on the tax (ie not charging us tax on tax) it would be

Cost of petrol 48p
VAT 8.4p - say 9p
Duty 50p

TOTAL - £1.07 - a saving of 8pence per litre! So supposing a car takes 50 litres, that would save £4.00 each time you fill up.

Callisto, The town I live in has a ridiculous system where most buses start outisde the city and terminate in the city centre bus depot, so to get across the city I have to go into town and out again, 2 miles out of my way. I can't walk as there is a massive hill in the way and DD1 won't stay on a buggy board for that long, it would take me an hour to walk it at least.

If they improved the buses then I would of course take them, when I go into town I am happy to, but I also need to get 2 buses to get to a supermarket when I need something not within walking distance, and I am not going to do that with 2 kids in tow.
The problem is that they expect everyone to start using public transport when it is in a shit state.
When I worked in Cardiff I commuted 50 miles each way by a special coach, it was fast, clean, comfy and cost effective, but when I have the children I just can't do it.

(I know debate has moved on but wanted to answer!)

Persuading people out of their cars onto public transport is achievable. It's been done. Sadly no-one in charge of transport policy seems to know this. But in S Yorks in the 80s they made bus and train fares dirt cheap, with frequent and reliable services covering urban and rural areas. It worked brilliantly. Took huge percentage of traffic off the roads, there was practically zero congestion, huge drop in traffic accidents/injuries and deaths - as measured against a demographically identical county, W Yorks.

If only those idiots nice people in the South East hadn't voted Maggie in again, S Yorks metro borough wouldn't have been abolished, and maybe we'd have a damn site better public transport system in this country...

Forget petrol and diesel heating oil has more than doubled since this time last year 65p a litre, we can just about manage but I know people around here that won't be able to afford to heat their homes this winter.

One of the many wasted opportunities of the blair government was to miss the chance to make public trnasport dirt cheap ( they could have cancelled the Dome and the wars and spent it on something worthwhile)

To those who say we should cut the petrol tax in order that prices go back down a bit: where exactly will the government recoup that money? what will fund all the road building they're doing (because road tax sure as hell doesn't come to that much). are you suggesting all taxpayers pay more so that drivers can drive as much as they did last year? bugger that.

the price of petrol has gone up because it is more scarce now than it was. that happens. if we mask the increase by lowering the tax, we'll only be in the same position again next year.

we need to use less petrol and diesel -
we need better public transport (and we need to expect less of it too. sometimes it's not economic to have buses which run every half hour rather than every hour). even if public transport is not an option you'd be surprised at how much you can save by accelerating less and driving under the speed limit.

and as for heating: it's a bummer we have to pay more for it, but what really do you expect anyone to do about that?

I did warn you.

SenoraPostrophe- I am sure if the govt did actually spend fuel tax on roads/hospitals/schools then there would be much less negativity. When your government santions an out of control Olympics budgets, countless secong homes for MP's, random govt buildings, domes and unnecessary wars then people tend to get their back up slightly.

We don't have hypothecated taxes in this country (apart from the TV license) - all the revenue goes into one big pot. No one is promising fuel and road tax to be ploughed back into transportation, I don't think.

We don't have hypothecated taxes in this country (apart from the TV license) - all the revenue goes into one big pot. No one is promising fuel and road tax to be ploughed back into transportation, I don't think.

SenoraPostrophe - the thing is, that isn't the case - the duty on petrol is a percentage, so as the prices rise, so does the duty. The Governement is getting a billion pounds EXTRA into the kitty because of the rise in oil prices. It is bonanza time in the treasury. Unfortunately I think GB and AD may be thanking their lucky stars that another hole has been invisibly filled.

I think there are 2 goodwill gestures the Government could make; firstly to change the duty to being pence per litre, not a percentage, so that we are not hit twice by a rise in oil prices AND a rise in duty (essentially a tax rise that doesn't need to be announced). secondly, by charging VAT on the pre-duty price - it's outrageous that we're charged tax on tax!

Duty on fuel is 50p per litre. It is not a percentage of the selling price.

ST - I see. But VAT is a percentage, on both the price and the duty.

As the price of everything goes up, so does the VAT revenue. There's no reason that fuel should be treated differently.

Possibly. But when it makes up so extortionately? It makes me so mad when you hear of Shell and BP making 4 billion pounds PROFIT in 3 months, and people living on the poverty line not being able to heat their houses. Our fuel bills have gone up by 100% per quarter this year. We can afford this, by not having other things. Many can't.

You can't force people out of their cars just by having high prices. You need to provide an alternative. In our city there is no alternative to the car. The buses scarcely run. There is no metro/train system (which there could be with some creative thinking and brave decisions). We HAD the money for a tram system, but it involved two councils, and they couldn't decide where the terminus should be, so they lost all the money - the Government took it back.

And with VAT - most VAT is based on the price of the item, not the item PLUS the same amount again as tax.

It's just a way of giving it a different tax rate. If you object to the duty being taxed, then they'd simply make the duty higher. At the end of the day, you are paying 70 - 80% tax.

as of Oct 2007, fuel duty is:

50.35 pence per litre for ultra-low sulphur unleaded petrol/diesel
53.65 pence per litre for conventional unleaded petrol
56.94 pence per litre for conventional diesel
30.35 pence per litre for bio-diesel and bio ethanol - low tax to encourage consumer conversion
16.49 pence per kg for gas other than natural gas (LPG)
13.70 pence per kg for natural gas used as road fuel.
9.69 pence per litre for rebated gas oil (red diesel)
9.29 pence per litre for rebated fuel oil

Diesel is at least £1.30 a litre here now - if fuel cost is 43p (dunno where I got that from now, it could be a bit higher), fuel + duty is £1.00 so VAT is 17.5p (that's nice and neat!); so the gross profit between refinery & petrol station is 13.5p a litre on top of 43p - nice for them

As for oil companies' profits - they have huge and risky exploration costs. They need to make profit to justify the risks and to cover the costs. Oil and its products are commodities - they have a fixed price based on the markets. Oil companies have several divisions - not all of their business is in retail fuel. They also make plastics and other chemicals.

I don't think 13.5p is their profit, as there will be plenty of overheads (employee wages, etc.). I think someone said earlier on the thread that there is very little profit in petrol stations.

About 4p/litre in profit for the garages.

They make most of their profit on the shops, off licenses, lotto sales and baccy.

At least, our one does - rural area.

Owner is happy to divulge this and other pertinent info - his is the only shop round here open till 10PM.