Fuel Protests

[TwoIfBySea]

For those of us who don't have a choice, for those of us who don't live anywhere near a place with public transport that is reliable and frequent. For those of us who don't have a lorry to drive into London to join the protests against the ridiculous cost that will hit the lowest waged and not the section of society it is aimed at and who have enough to see the current fuel price as inconvenient.

There are petitions of which that is one, so while I doubt government will give a hoot it is at least something. There were 59k signatures when I signed earlier and, like the fuel prices it has shot up!

Sorry, I fueled my car today, and am still feeling like I got mugged. Diesel has gone up far more than unleaded yet is more "efficient" so lets have none of that environment talk.

TIBS - I don't doubt that GB will panic and give way - for now - he needs to save his own skin regardless of the the longer term impact.
BUT - in the medium and long term term oil IS inexorably going up, and all that derives from it, which is just about everything - so it is only a temporary reprieve.
Sign the petition and, if it works, congratulate yourslef for having selfishly kept your own costs low for a while without having to alter your lifestyle - and never mind about those who will be worst affected by it. We have all (in the west) consumed resources recklessly - now is payback time, and we are going to have to change our expectations drastically. And yes, the poor and elderly will suffer most because they always do. We are going to have to CHANGE BEGAVIOUR - we could start taking personal responsibility for elderly neighbours and relatives, rather than baleating about petitions.

Campaign for better public transport instead. I am totally behind on this. Very interesting front page in the Independent today too.

totally behind GB on this, not totally behind

Well I think fuel prices are ridiculous. It's the exorbitant amount of tax we pay on it in this country that is the killer.

Not everyone can/wants to/is able to use public transport for various reasons so it's pretty selfish to assume everyone should be using it.

/mn as right on as ever

global warming is a myth.

saying that the poor and the elderly with sufer becuas they always do and somehw there shold spring up out of the ashes like a pheonix - community spirit - is laughable - like the petition - it wont work in real terms.

we need an alternate source of fuel - the technology exists

so why isnt't it ou there in the market place on a wide spead scale?

becuse v. rich and important [people whould lose a shitload of money

so whilst the poor are being screwed and the govt is licking rich arserings
i shall continue to be disgruntled at the price of fuel whilst poor people suffer and people in the city, close arab sheiks, warlords etc enjoy the conforable life they are acustomed to on the backk of my money

i could get the train to work - but it would cost me double

whilst again lining the pockets of rich people and shareholders

ever been on the thameslink between 8-9.30am? on a hot sunny day with smelly people pushed in like cattle

like fucking cattle

its disgusting

and some days the company that i work for pays over £40 per ticket when i have to go to london

imagine if that came out of yor pocket £40

for one day

to stand up most the sodding way crammed in like cattle and the smell on a ho day isnt to dissimilar either.

pay for that fucking privilage

seriously

its fucked up

but i bet shareholders get paid and train companies make profit

whilst beig sibsdised by my taxes at that - i never get that

a private company

i subsdise

northern rock

train companies

funny thisthis capitalism - doesn't work unless you cheat

Well as Mrs Thatcher "Any man who rides a bus to work after the age of 30 can count himself a failure in life".

Your description of a train journey would seem to suggest that the same is true of anyone using a train!

Ah, what a legacy, eh?

They're not protesting to help us.

They only want cheaper prices for fleet diesel.

How about you look at what you pay the VAT for on your petrol or diesel?

It's not just the fuel you're paying VAT on, it's the whole lot - the duty as well. So you're being taxed twice. That's the disgrace here.

I couldn't take my DC's to the park last week as I couldn't afford to fill the car.
It is a 5 inute drive
it is an hour and a quarter on 3 buses and 10 mins walking, with 2 under 3 and a single buggy.
I'm with custy

I am behing GB too. Well not exactly. We are pretty good at nodding sagely and platitudinously at exhortations to change our habits, but rarely do. Those that do change are oft characterised as weirdoes.

no hunks, this isn't about some moral-driven(!) initiative, is it? Haulage firms see their profits reduced and so wish to bung up the roads in a petulant fit.

So, GB is going to meet with oil companies to see how he can help them produce more? See here: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7422802.stmWell, Einstein, you could start by undoing the taxes you imposed on the North Sea industry a few years ago which cased many companies to pack up some of their production and look for oil elsewhere?

And, the tax we consumers pay at the pum. Reduce it. Take it from say 70% to 50%. You will still be making a packet on our transportation needs.

The problem is the tax that is charged at the pump.

www.petrolprices.com/fuel-tax.html

Oh, and Custy, you are mistaken. The technology does not exist.

I am behind GB too with my boot up his lying corrupt arse - he will say and do anything to stay in power. So if it might bring this anti-civil liberties-decline in social mobility-financial-mishandling shower of shite down then I am for the govt. As soon as it works I am thoroughly in favour of any measures that can help the environment. Personally think increasing air fuel tax would be much fairer myself - people don't need to go abroad on holiday. Recently we have decided to move to a town rather than village because of transport issues, am about to buy new bike, we are looking to buy a house and fuel efficiency stuff will be higher than the aesthetic fripperies that would usually be high on my list.

Chirpy - how can a 5 minute drive equate to that much time on public transport etc? It would be quicker (and healthier) to walk? Can you get a thing that attches to the buggy for 1 child to stand on?

Personally, I am with Mrs Guy and Pan. I loathe GB but I still think that high fuel prices is the best thing to happen to the West for a long time. We will finally have to wake up and find alternative energy supplies. It is going to hurt lots of people, but surely better than being held to ransom by Russia etc? I do completely agree, though, that public transport is shite and needs massive investment. You won't get that from GB though, he needs all the fuel duty billions to service the national debt he has run up (which sucks in as much money as he spends on the armed forces every year btw).

Also, the whole of the West is experiencing this - not just us. Why do you think the French have started burning tyres again?

Gordon Brown is an arrogant, pig-headed git. He'd rather lose his job than ever admit he was wrong, much less correct his mistakes. He's too big of a fool to realise doing so might just earn him a bit of the respect he thinks he's somehow entitled to.

He'll be gone one day, but not before he's done untold damage and he'll walk off with a fat wad of taxpayer cash.

And people can't CHANGE THEIR BEHAVIOUR unless they have something to change it to.

Let me just magic up a bus to use at all, and wave my wand round and make it reliable, cost-effective and give it a reasonable schedule.

How about trains that run on time, with enough carriages for people, at a cost even the working poor can afford.

Until then, until we see real investment in improved public transport, no one is going to be fooled into believing all this extra tax and duty is anything other than a con.

So, what do people think should be done about the high price of oil/gas/petrol?

1- Leave it and let market run it's course. This is necessary evil to get people to change their selfish consumption of our limited resources.

2- Reduce the taxes because they are a whopping 70% of the price at the pump. And the goverment doesn't need such a high percentage when the price of the product is so high anyway.

3- Increase output around the world to bring supply in line with demand?

4- Get moving on the nuclear power plans?

Just some ideas for discussion. I'm sure there are others.

Seriously, chaps - we pay VAT on the duty they're charging us.

We are taxed twice for petrol, ffs!

I think it is vital to become self sufficient with our energy needs. Being reliant on Russia and the Middle East is madness. If all of this helps wean us off foreign oil then it is all for the good.

Well that is me told then MrsGuy!

If the tax was being used for decent public transport then fine, but it is not. If tax was being put into finding out ways of getting rid of this oil dependency then fine, but it is not. If the tax was being used to make the oil we use go further then so be it. I drive a very efficient car, a diesel bought because it was efficient and supposedly better for the environment - yet diesel has gone up 30% at the same time unleaded has gone up 18% so that kind of blows out the environment excuse.

On the same day as the protests MPs discuss whether or not they should get £100k wage packets plus £23k expenses. So I wonder where all the money goes?

Yes, it is selfish, but I have no choice. I didn't own a car until I was 26. Until then I relied totally on public transport and did very well on it, but that same public transport I used then, routes changed and timetables became convenient for no one. Ten years on and I live in an area where public transport - well to put it kindly it is erratic at best. There is a train station in the town next to me. Only trains are cancelled frequently and sometimes morning ones - watch the rush of workers dive to their cars as they realise they are going to be late again.

So selfish it might be but until someone comes up with an answer then punishing people for trying to get from one place to another as quickly and easily as possible is ridiculous.

I see your point, Callisto. But I think we need to crank up the punishment at a slower rate. I generally believe in the free market. But, I do think we have to think about people who don't have alternative means of transportation. Punish people for driving cars when they have another option.

And hunker is right about the tax. It is truly outrageous. I think it's the highest in Europe (I could be wrong about that though).

Good points Athene. The difficulty for the UK government is that the UK economy has become so reliant on the fuel tax over the last 15 years since the Conservative government put in place the Fuel Price Escalator in 1993. Prior to the FPE (I think) the fuel tax duty rose in line with inflation, but the FPE enabled the duty to rise 3-5% ahead of inflation. Partly this was intended to reduce pollution/ demand for new road-building and partly, obviously, to raise additional money for the Treasury. The fuel duty peaked at about 82% in 1998 (according to the BBC). Labour goverment actually abolised the FPE in 2000 and as a result of that, and increasing oil prices, we're now a shade under 70%, but still the highest in Europe by some margin. When you're jumping around blaming GB (who is certainly no saint) bear this in mind.

The fuel tax duty currently raised about £24 billion per year for the Treasury - a huge amount which would pay for (according to the NAO) approximately 75% of the entire defence budget. To reduce it from 70% to even a mere 50% would cost the Treasury about £7 billion - or to put it another way, comfortably more than the entire annual budget for International Development. Obviously, in reality the effect is impacted by many other factors but that gives a sense of the scale we're talking about. It might well be the case that we have the highest fuel tax in Europe, but cutting it is going to significantly reduce the amount available for other services.

In terms of the global picture, it seems clear to me at least that the oil price is a one way bet (upwards). Whilst the exact level of proven/ probable oil reserves is basically impossible to know, it simply must be the case that the easiest to extract oil has been taken, and that the marginal cost of extracting future reserves will continue to rise. Coupled with increasing demand from developing markets, the price can only go one way in the long term unless I'm missing something.

We pay tax on the tax on fuel.

I paid 1.29 for diesel yesterday!! This has added £15 per tank compared to last year when I bought my (very sensible/efficient) family car.

There is no public transport around here other than into London so when I need to go sideways (if that makes sense) you would need to take about 5 buses to get where needed.

The tax here is outrageous. I wish we were more like the French and protest properly!