Three woman murdered in Hertfordshire.

[BodenCardiganNot]

Absolutely shocking. A 26 year old man named as Kyle Clifford, believed to be armed with a crossbow, is being sought by police.
The dead women are aged 61, 28 and 25.

Seriously, is two women per week murdered by a partner or expartner not enough for you? That's in the UK, in Australia. In the USA, three women are murdered by their partner or expartner every day.

I'm sure you can Google, too. Here's another link for you.

Femicide: Women are most likely to be killed by their partner or ex (bbc.com)

Please can MNHQ get all the fucking NAMALTers off the thread?

They are fucking goady. I don’t care if your Dave is lovely, this is about 3 women murdered by another fucking man.

98% of killers are men. Put that in your fucking pipe.

Yet another man posting about woman’s hysteria. Go take it elsewhere.

I am as entitled to my views as you are, full stop.

And if he had reacted a little bit differently, he might well have just killed her in a rage for fighting back. She had no way of knowing how he'd react, and she was lucky because if he had gone into a rage he would certainly have been able to overpower her (the stats on male vs female physical strength are staggering - even a weaker, unfit, elderly man will have more grip strength than a fit strong woman).

Freeze / Fawn / Flop / Friend etc. aren't just flawed natural responses to try to override - they can save your life, depending on the circumstances. We have evolved these responses for a reason.

The idea that fighting back is the 'correct' way to react, and that it will keep you safe, is an absolute nonsense. And, as PP have said, it is very easy to talk tough from the comfort of your home, but in a survival situation your instinctive responses will take over.

I'd also add that thinking that fighting back is likely to be successful, and therefore the correct response to a dangerous/violent situation, is a particularly male way of thinking.

Women may sometimes instinctively respond by fighting back, but women don't go through life assuming they will be able to fight men off - quite the opposite. We know we almost certainly can't.

Men are physically stronger and are more likely to go through life thinking that they will be able to protect themselves if something happens to them. In addition, if a man does attack another man he will likely be intent on inflicting physical harm or robbery rather than sexual violence. The circumstances of male on male aggression (because realistically the perpetrator is still almost always a man) are very, very different to the circumstances of MVAWG.

@TarantinoIsAMisogynist “The idea that fighting back is the 'correct' way to react, and that it will keep you safe, is an absolute nonsense.”.

Too right.

Remember this heart-breaking story? If only they had fought back, oh wait, they did…

“A man accused of pushing 2 American women off a cliff in Germany had 'deep red marks all over' as though he was 'fought back at,' witness says. He pushed both women off a 150-foot cliff, killing one. ”

”The 30-year-old man met the two female tourists, ages 21 and 22, on a hiking path and lured them onto a trail that leads to a viewpoint, police said in a statement.
"The younger of the two women was attacked by the suspect," said police spokesman Holger Stabik. "The older one tried to rush to her aid, was then choked by the suspect and subsequently pushed down a slope.

American man admits rape and murder of woman near German castle

@Roseyjane because it's a culture.

The internet is full of men discussing ways of torturing, raping and murdering women.

Pornography is becoming increasingly more violent.

1/3 of 16 year old girls have said they've experienced unwanted sexual touching.

Female politicians are harassed and abused (way more so than their male counterparts).

I could go on. There's not any equivalent for women. There's no culture or support of violence amongst women to hurt children or sexually abuse. Of course those women are sick and evil. But nothing on their journey to their crimes told them that what they were doing was okay, or made jokes about it, or emulated it in some way (like pornography).

As soon men stop the culture of violence against women, then you can say 'not all men' but until then, no.

The internet is full of men discussing ways of torturing, raping and murdering women.

It's utterly depressing that we all know this to be true.

It is probably more sensible to let them rape up. Fighting back will get us killed instead.

I agree 100% it is so depressing. I knew a Dave, lovely family man everyone said it - kind and caring, been married to his wife for 15 years, had two lovely kids, normal family life in the suburbs. Dave was lovely until the night he murdered his wife and stabbed and strangled his kids and is now serving 28 years (it barely hit the local news)........Yeah lovely man that Dave.

Oh and btw the reason Dave killed his wife rather predictably was because they had (amicably) separated some months before and his wife had been chatting to a new man. So after she had invited him round for a family lunch he drugged her and killed her in her own home. All of those people saying they don't know any man like this, I can assure you there was never any prior history with Dave - he really was just a normal family man, until he wasn't.

The guy who raped me had his whole family in court supporting him, all convinced he was innocent and a lovely man. Anyone who thinks that they don't know any men like this is utterly deluded - if you know a normal amount of men (friends, family, colleagues, friends' partners) then you definitely do.

Someone mentioned upthread that as they've got older they've spotted more warning signs in the relationships of women they know, and I'd agree with that. I know a few couples where everything seems to go smoothly provided the man gets his own way, but not if he doesn't. I don't know what happens behind closed doors, but I can see that the female half of the couple does a lot of placating and going along with what he wants.

I feel sick this morning thinking about those poor women - they must have been terrified.

Who knows how any of us would instinctively react when suddenly confronted with great danger. In the 90s on my busy road at rush-hour a young woman had someone jump into her car at the traffic lights - her instinct was to fight back and she managed to get out of the car unscathed, thank goodness. Whether he had a weapon I don't know.

Men of violence always have the upper hand because they have a plan and know what's coming, the poor woman has to rely on her immediate response and luck.

I got deleted for noticing a poster with a flowery feminine name and an all male NAMALT-and-what-about-when-women.... agenda.

One like that near us. He killed his wife and daughters because he wasn't as rich as he pretended to be and didn't want them to find out. Fits the old Margaret Atwood observation:
Men fear women will laugh at them.
Women fear men will kill them.

Have you heard yourself? You think fighting back is always possible? Are you aware that freezing or fawning when faced with situations like this happens? You're either being deliberately provocative or you really need to educate yourself and listen to what actual victims of assault tell you.

The perpetrator is in hospital. I hope they go easy on the pain relief.

I can. It's horribly, horribly inevitable. This has always gone on but like PPs upthread I also have the sinking sense that we have gone backwards: the rise of incel culture, the ease of men with these attitudes now being able to find one another, and the general behaviour to women I'm encountering in public all testify to this. Trains are almost a no-go zone. I've encountered the leg-brush every woman is familiar with. Been filmed on a table seat. Been approached on flights and asked where I've been going when I disembarked. General intrusiveness; attempts to encroach on my time and attention (ie when I'm reading on the Tube) as theirs by right. And then there are the infuriating mansplainers who rely on women's politeness not to tell them - perhaps in more temperate language - to go fuck themselves. I'm rapidly losing my filter and these days, safety permitting, I have no such qualms.

And I'm now into middle age. I well remember what this was like as a young woman and, having experienced a temporary reprieve (at least on the surface) in the 90s, things are now no better. They're probably worse.

It's the casual, simmering, underlying misogyny, not least the pathetic apologists for misogyny who are out in droves upthread, which sadly lead to this more extreme but tragically inevitable outcome.

MRAs are saturating this site. It's been this way for a while.

The complaints about man-haters are revealing. Women don't go around harming, humiliating, flashing at, heckling, goading, assaulting and killing men. All most of us want is to be left in peace to go about our day. And we are rightly resentful and angry that men make this absolutely impossible. Nothing about my headphones and nose wrinkled in concentration and buried in a book suggests I long for male company. Ditto, a thread about murdered women on a support site aimed mainly at a female demographic. The usual social cues are useless because they know they're being intrusive and don't care. Use outright rudeness and in the wrong circumstances we could end up in a ditch.

Heavy hint: misandry is not the problem here. It never was.

Men are just fucking incapable of leaving us alone.

Well that's revealing. Anyone who uses the word feminist as an insult shows themselves.

Anyone who minimises ANY number of women experiencing DV or sexual assault reveals who they are.

Violence against Women and Girls and Male Position Factsheets – Home Office in the media (blog.gov.uk)

In fact it is 25% of women who experience DV in their lifetimes and 20% who experience sexual assault. What proportion of women do you think is acceptable? What number is excusable so we're not allowed to get angry with men who attack us? And those who defend them?

Until it's 0% then you even trying to have an argument about us not inconveniently mentioning it and making you feel a bit uncomfortable is despicable.

It’s as though men generally see women as an accessory to somehow improve their lives, as a functional service- sex, housework, completing their family man image by being at their side, producing children, providing entertainment. Even the ones who are on the face of it non aggressive… they all expect something. What use are we if we don’t put out, clean up, dress up, sit down, shut up, bring kids up, if these tasks aren’t fulfilled they feel we are useless. They judge us by what we can do for them. Blow up doll, porn star, cheerleader and provider of offspring. There are shades of this everywhere. They don’t like women to be comedian’s though because whatever happens we must never laugh at them.

It is really shocking to see the MRAs on this thread telling us that there is a level of male violence, rape and murder that we should just accept.

This is horrifying, RIP Carole, Hannah and Louise.
Wild that two brothers have committed such awful murders.