Three woman murdered in Hertfordshire.

[BodenCardiganNot]

Absolutely shocking. A 26 year old man named as Kyle Clifford, believed to be armed with a crossbow, is being sought by police.
The dead women are aged 61, 28 and 25.

I agree.

In fairness this is just the rules of journalism – a story is more ‘newsworthy’ if there is a link to a famous person.

I think if their relative had been a female presenter this would also have been played on.

All throughout time and across cultures, men view themselves as superior to women. They still do. The only thing making anything better are laws that force them to keep themselves in check, which comes purely from a desire for self-preservation and not because they believe said act is wrong.

And is often sadly the case, even that is not enough. It makes me despair.

@Gamefacer, you have just put into words how I feel about men, including my husband. They all want something and see women as an accessory to improve their lives. Individually I like some of them, as a collective I hate them. I struggle with this.

What happened yesterday was shocking in it's brutality but on hearing the news we all knew what this was going to be about. My 10 year old daughter overheard me listening to the news and asked me why that man killed those women, what do I tell her? How do I prepare her and her younger sister for what is to come. I can't teach them how to weed out the good men from the bad ones because we can't see it until it's too late. We can't mitigate the risk, if it's not boyfriends or husbands, it could be the work colleague, it could be the delivery driver, it could be the random stranger you just happen to come across (I know of women raped by all of these types).

Those three beautiful women who were murdered, and probably endured the most terrifying deaths at the hands of yet another inadequate and violent man, it happens over and over again. There will be another 2 women this week, and next and next. The families and friends left behind. How does their poor remaining sister cope? I feel so angry and sad today. Men are the problem here, the bad ones and the 'good' ones too. I have a son too, I can try my best to educate him, for him to see me, his sisters and all the women he comes into contact as people in their own right, I can do my best with this, but how do I shelter him from what is fed to him by society and other men who benefit from all of this about the worth of women? Men need to be outraged by this, and from what I've seen even the good ones just accept it happens.

Sure. But 1. There have been a number of reports where the women's names were not even mentioned even though they were known and being reported as the family of John Hunt 2. In one particularly outrageous BBC update the headline said, "women named" and then... they only actually named Carol. Louise and Hanna were referenced purely as his daughters. 3. The reality is that if he was not famous, we know from the 3 women a week who are murdered that the chances are they would still have been referenced in the context of a man, or at best, their parental status "Wife of, mother of" etc. If the man's job is high status, even if he is not famous, this would be even more true ""wife of heart surgeon" etc.

I read in one report that the family were upset their names were released so fast.

We need all these "good" men to be protesting, marching, condemning male violence. Not excusing it. Not telling women to stop mentioning it.

So true @Catmoobs about men complying out of self preservation. It can be seen time again when there are lawless situations where chaos is present even the nice guys will rape and pillage. Student Gang rapes where the good guy joins in because “ why not “ we won’t get caught. Many men don’t do these things but a disturbing amount think about it and want to

The worst case I read of not naming the victims properly was when a woman and he mother were murdered by the younger woman's partner. They were described in all the media as "the wife" and "the mother in law of". I can understand "wife" as a way of describing her relation to her murderer. But to relegate the other woman to "mother in law" as though that was her most important characteristic - her role as mother in law to the murdering scum.

Unless it’s affecting them personally then they are likely to be paying lip service. What will change things here?

@endofthelinefinally yes! My 'good' husband told me to turn off the news yesterday. When we talked about this later and I expressed how awful I thought men were he started with the NAMALT, and then went on to tell me how things were improving for women - based on no evidence at all, and how hopefully society will evolve. This is a 'good' man, who has 4 daughters. Where is the outrage? Where is the marching? Where is the questioning of why this is happening and why his daughter are not safe in this world - from his own fucking gender.

What will change things here? That is a good question.

Women cant afford to face the reality of male violence, and good men are made uncomfortable by it. As in the Met Police, where "good" men ignored Wayne Couzens's behaviour.

@CharlotteRumpling yes, the 'good' men are made uncomfortable so they turn away - how do we get them to find their anger and disgust rather than ignoring it because they are uncomfortable. Society ignores the scale of child sexual abuse because it is uncomfortable and unpalatable too, these things need to change, but how? It doesn't feel achievable - if we march it will be the crazy feminists again and a few men will join. It feels like we are still reliant on men to be bothered enough to want to speak up.

It is exceedingly rare for any man to call out another on his behaviour. It breaks some bro code of conduct between bros. I mean, that lovely saying ‘bros before hos’ exists for a reason. They all feel this way. Even if they don’t like or agree with what is being said, they’ll keep their mouths shut about it.

I freeze in those instances.
I wish I didn’t but I did. Sometimes you can’t fight back. It is an inbuilt safety mechanism we have. And we shouldn’t ever victim blame for not fighting back. Sometimes you just can’t.

I was also one of the few who was abused by a woman so some days these threads are hard read. Even I can appreciate I’m in the minority and the majority of attacks are men (I’ve been lucky enough to be the victim of them too!)

10th rule of misogyny. The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

I disagree with this and it's certainly not true to say all men feel like this. I also don't know any men who say "bros before hoes".
My ex was a dick. Not seriously abusive but he liked to make fun of me and put me down in front of other people. I'd say that every single one of his male friends pulled him up on it. Some actually ended their friendships with him over it! And they told him why. I've seen men pull up other men on bad behaviour towards women, many times. Decent men do this.

In the case of the Dave I knew (who murdered his wife and kids). No history of abuse at all and I knew them well and their extended family / neighbours. During the investigation it was discovered that it was premeditated, he had hacked into her SM accounts, googled ways of murdering them etc and yet there were no warnings, he had gone round to the family home for Sunday lunch with his stbxw and his children. There had never been any complaints of abuse, just a 'normal' every day hard working couple that had come to an amicable split. Dave had decided that if he couldn't have his wife nobody else would. How can we protect ourselves from this sort of situation? Are ALL men capable of this and how can we really know when we have lived with them peacefully for many years?

It's annoying me to my core that the picture of him blasted over the world is him in a suit, half smiling and looking anything but the evil disgusting jealous possessive woman killer he is.

The point is that ocne th enames were released, there were still many many stories that did not even name them. Whether or not they should have been named, or John Hunt named, is irrelevant. Once their names were out there, the fact that they were still regularly only referred to in the context of a man is frustrating.

Even when the headline said, "women named" they didn't bloody name them.

mine was the same
“why are you having a go at me, I didn’t do it” when I was talking about the scale of violence against women.

this is a man who has intervened when he’s seen violence against women. He just doesn’t understand it.

NRFT or aware of whether this has been posted but the justice here is unthinkable: PICTURED: Slain nursing student's gruesome injuries by ex-boyfriend
mol.im/a/13620877

You've put into words exactly what I want to say
A while ago,we got onto the topic of men murdering woman and he looked damn uncomfortable
'You rarely hear of men killing woman'
'Yes but two women a week die at the hands of men-its sheer luck I'm not one of them'
'Yes,but not all men are like that-plus it happens so often,its not worth the media picking up on it'
'These women are mothers,sisters,daughters,friends!their lives are just as important as mens'
'Yes,but I wouldn't do this-plus feminism is pushing forward with making women safer'

Fuck sake!
This is a man who wouldn't dream of hurting a woman,we have 4 dds between us (two each) and he's still sticking his head in the sand over all this

We need men to get angry,to start sticking up for us,to match alongside us,to help make changes

Makes me so angry-this is one of the good ones and because he's uncomfortable,he won't see the bigger picture

(And don't get me started on the men who are 'women are just as bad'
Women make up 4% of the prison population and most are not in for violent crimes-im not saying woman can't be violent,but its way more likely to be a man who hits,rapes,kills)

My 10 year old daughter overheard me listening to the news and asked me why that man killed those women, what do I tell her? How do I prepare her and her younger sister for what is to come.

I am crying because your situation is impossible. It breaks my heart.

I was called names upthread for saying that I chose not to have kids in part because I didn't want to bring a daughter into this world. I knew at eight how awful men could be because two boys sexually assaulted me at school and I decided in my teens never to bring children into this world because of that. I knew that I could never handle the situation you are in.

I fear for your daughters and I feel despair towards men.