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soupfiend · 05/06/2024 21:33

DadBodAlready · 05/06/2024 20:31

What makes you think 'the authorities have a good idea who it is'?
The police claim to have been looking for the parents for 5 yrs, and i seriously doubt Social Services have any idea, they rarely do

Do you work for social services in CP teams? Or the police in CP teams/MASH

Quite often we have lots of information about people, but there is no proof. We have information gathered from various sources, churches, shops, other parents/families/crime reports that dont go anywhere/children talking about something at school but without proof. A picture is nevertheless built up and on balance, likelihood, this is the person involved or this is the person we are talking about. People report things to police and social services all the time, thats why there is such a high level of collaboration so that we can share titbits of information that alone dont make sense or are insignificant but joined up start to mean something.

So we often know things and information about people, even if we cant do anything about it.

The police have no doubt been trying to source evidence for a long time, thats not to say that they dont know anything at all, they havent got enough detail to prove something perhaps so thats why they are still 'looking'. It doesnt mean they know nothing about who it might be.

SoupChicken · 05/06/2024 21:52

I think it is in the public interest to publish that the children are full siblings, whoever is abandoning them is committing a crime by concealing the births and is denying the children the right to know where they came from, not to mention the neglect for the short time they were with their parents. There are also almost certainly crimes being committed against the mother.

NosyJosie · 05/06/2024 22:16

Given that this thread has more than 400 replies now I think we can agree it is OF public interest and potentially also IN public interest as it sparks conversation and awareness.

It’s interesting that everyone draws the conclusion that there is a woman in captivity and a man dropping babies in bags.
We don’t know the situation - it could be a deeply challenged mum and another relative or relatives plural getting rid of the baby this way to keep them away from her.

Abouttimeforanamechange · 05/06/2024 22:39

Well she is wrong. Judges are not infallible. Sometimes they make mistakes

No doubt. But a senior judge with years of experience who has all the information about the case is better placed to make the decision than someone who has just read about it on the internet.

T1Dmama · 05/06/2024 23:32

Makes you wonder if the mother has been sex trafficked…. Either an immigrant or an underage victim… very worrying!!!
Need to run the DNA against parents/siblings of missing kids

ARichtGoodDram · 05/06/2024 23:59

Abouttimeforanamechange · 05/06/2024 22:39

Well she is wrong. Judges are not infallible. Sometimes they make mistakes

No doubt. But a senior judge with years of experience who has all the information about the case is better placed to make the decision than someone who has just read about it on the internet.

Not just people on here who disagree, both the police and the local authority dealing with the case disagreed with the decision.

mathanxiety · 06/06/2024 02:10

Abouttimeforanamechange · 05/06/2024 22:39

Well she is wrong. Judges are not infallible. Sometimes they make mistakes

No doubt. But a senior judge with years of experience who has all the information about the case is better placed to make the decision than someone who has just read about it on the internet.

You might be surprised how out of touch many judges are when it comes to violence or abuse of women or any case that potentially involves violence / abuse of a woman.

mathanxiety · 06/06/2024 02:15

CerealPonderer · 05/06/2024 10:16

The authorities will have a good idea of who the parents are, even if they cant prove it, even if the parents dont engage, even if there is nothing the authorities can do about the situation, whatever that situation is, so to make it public serves no purpose

Total rubbish. Of course the authorities don't have a good idea of who the parents are 🙄

Making it public serves great purpose. People are now aware that within a certain area of London there is a black or mixed race couple where the woman has been pregnant in 2017, 2019 and 2023 with no baby afterwards. Linking the occurrences together and reporting them may well be enough to trigger someone's memory about the quiet woman from the end house who she thought was pregnant a couple of times but doesn't have any children, or similar.

Or it could be an undocumented woman kept in slavery as a domestic servant who never gets out, and nobody ever sees her. Or a woman kept in a cellar by some depraved individual like Fritzl.

It's possible a woman like that would never be missed, and if publicity spooks a person holding and raping a woman, it's fairly easy to predict she could be simply disposed of.

soupfiend · 06/06/2024 07:45

ARichtGoodDram · 05/06/2024 23:59

Not just people on here who disagree, both the police and the local authority dealing with the case disagreed with the decision.

And CAFCASS, and I know everyone on here hates them but still every single organisation and professional involved with these children/this child opposed that application.

Dibbydoos · 06/06/2024 08:44

Someone must be witnessing a pregnant woman with no baby, not once but 3 times, unless shes under lock and key...

Such a sad situation, but at least the babies are all doing well.

I fear for their mum though :(

SoupDragon · 06/06/2024 09:09

All they'd have to do is move though. Especially in London (or any city really) where it's busy and you might not know neighbours from two streets over.

OhmygodDont · 06/06/2024 13:22

Maybe they move a lot even just a few streets away means new neighbours and maybe use. Different shop.

You bump into Martha, oh your pregnant again, how’s the (toddler) yeah good at preschool / home with daddy thanks. Waves bye 👋 Unless you regularly saw her and never ever a baby I can’t say I’d question it. Can’t say I’d remember the year of which any of my neighbours where pregnant unless something happened in my life to go oh yeah jenny was pregnant when the car caught fire in 2021.

They will most likely leave that area now though if they hadn’t already. There is that big question of what happened in those years during covid. Where no babies made or was it just too risky to dump them so they were kept or disposed off.

So many possibilities to the whole case.

Southlondoner88 · 06/06/2024 13:48

Yeah so many possibilities and living in the city means people can leave anonymously. I’m actually thinking now it’s possible the mother and father could be under control and being abused, it’s possibly a modern day slavery case. Sadly not uncommon.

MrsSunshine2b · 06/06/2024 15:47

MumblesParty · 05/06/2024 21:25

Someone I knew adopted a baby who was born to a drug addicted couple. 2 years later they got a call from social services - the same couple had had another child, who needed adopting. So they adopted that one too.

My husband has 3 cousins who were adopted in the same way- one at a time as the parents kept having more children. Apparently they got the call many more times after that, but after 3 they said they couldn't take anymore, especially as all of them have significant disabilities. Sadly, this was all 30 years ago and there was no effort made to retain contact between the older 3 and the younger ones.

GreenFritillary · 06/06/2024 21:58

Few babies are abandoned in Britain these days, some years none at all, so there is no longer any provision for them. These babies were left, moderately well wrapped, where they would quickly be found and, individually, arouse little suspicion.

Elsa was abandoned at an hour old, so can hardly have been left by the mother.

They were born healthy and well nourished, no evidence of drugs or alcohol, and the mother was eating well in pregnancy. This is not a chaotic, inadequate, learning-disabled or destitute mother.

The most likely culprit is the father, with coercive control over a captive woman: possibly incest; a cult; possibly trafficked, modern slavery; but probably not prostituted (as all children have same father).

As well as the well-known Elisabeth Fritzl, there have been many such cases. There was one in Brixton ten years ago, where the situation had been going on for decades unbeknownst to neighbours:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-b0af7ef5-1031-4e1f-a3ac-b3c21ef0f932

The best hope of tracing the parents is through familial DNA, which the adoptive parents can have done even if the police have restrictions.

Meanwhile, although it is a high risk strategy, publicising the situation may produce someone nearby who suspects this household, and will encourage them to report it.

And it puts everyone all over the world on notice that Britain is not a soft touch – not a country that gives sanctuary to such coercive abuse. This discourages future occurrences of such tragedies – and prevention is always the best option in safeguarding.

Growing up a prisoner in a cult

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-b0af7ef5-1031-4e1f-a3ac-b3c21ef0f932

WolfFoxHare · 09/06/2024 18:58

I imagine the DNA would show if the children are the product of an incestuous relationship. Of course, this information wouldn’t necessarily be released.

Yerroblemom1923 · 12/06/2024 06:29

@WolfFoxHare yes, they'd know, but as you say wouldn't be releasing that as it might not be in the best interests. It may also be another reason they're so keen to find the mother.

Theremedy · 15/05/2025 09:40

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxvzd729xeo

There is still no resolution to this case. The police are now going to start collecting DNA from people in the local area. It’s very concerning that there is likely a very vulnerable woman somewhere unknown to services.

A composite image of photos provided by the Metropolitan Police. On the left is baby Harry who has wavy dark hair and is wearing a red and white striped outfit. To the right is his sister Roman. She is wearing a white hat and has a tube in her nose and...

Baby Elsa: Police going door-to-door in hunt for parents of abandoned siblings

The search for parents of three newborn babies, all abandoned after birth, is focused on nearby houses.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdxvzd729xeo

TokyoSushi · 15/05/2025 10:50

Agree that it is very concerning, who knows what this woman's life is like, good on the police for continuing to try to find her. They seem to have narrowed it down to a really small area now so hopefully she will be found & helped, if nothing changes I imagine that there will eventually be a 4th baby.

loropianalover · 15/05/2025 11:09

God I think of this situation every week 😔 baby Elsa was less than one hour old when she was found - meaning the parents must be close by. And that they had no time with their baby before she was abandoned. They knew how to avoid CCTV between their home and the spot they left her, so obviously walk the area regularly and were able to plan.

I do believe it’s likely they are living in England illegally, maybe they think the babies will have better lives if they’re adopted out? But I find it very concerning that no neighbour or local shopkeeper etc knew of a pregnant (x3) woman living nearby. Terrifying to think somebody could be living like this in such a busy area and it goes unnoticed..

TokyoSushi · 15/05/2025 11:26

The woman & babies must have no pre or post natal care either, it's concerning that she keeps getting pregnant knowing that this is what will happen to the babies, it's easily preventable even if you are unregistered/have no GP etc so there's potentially (even) more to it.

Snerl · 15/05/2025 11:32

TokyoSushi · 15/05/2025 11:26

The woman & babies must have no pre or post natal care either, it's concerning that she keeps getting pregnant knowing that this is what will happen to the babies, it's easily preventable even if you are unregistered/have no GP etc so there's potentially (even) more to it.

Pregnancy is definitely not "easily preventable" for many, many women!
If she's not registered with a GP, she can't be prescribed the contraceptive pill, implant etc. If she doesn't have access to funds, she can't buy condoms. If she's in an abusive situation, she may not be consenting to sex / may not be able to request that sexual partner(s) wear a condom. If she isn't familiar with the NHS or isn't able to travel around freely, she might not know that she's entitled to free contraception from a GUM clinic, or may not be able to get to one. I don't think she's happily married, middle class, British born/bred/educated who's just choosing to have and abandon a series of babies; she's obviously very vulnerable and very likely being exploited.

TokyoSushi · 15/05/2025 11:36

I'm sorry, that was clumsily worded, I just meant that she must as you say not have access to funds/the NHS/information to help prevent a pregnancy so is more likely to be being exploited, abused, something else that makes her very vulnerable.

Snerl · 15/05/2025 11:36

@TokyoSushi re-reading your post, I realise we may be making the same point re her vulnerabilities. I initially read it as "Why does she keep getting pregnant when there are so many ways to prevent it??" - apologies if that was a misreading.

I heard on the news this morning that they had narrowed their search to 400 households. Which is good news, but why publicise it? Surely whoever is "managing" her (for want of a better word) will get spooked and move her somewhere else, or find another awful way to ensure she/they evade detection.

Snerl · 15/05/2025 11:36

Ah, cross post!