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youtube gang rape "victim" arrested.

142 replies

wannaBe · 02/04/2008 20:21

not so innocent after all?

OP posts:
Scotia · 03/04/2008 18:32

Maybe the sensible thing would be to wait until we DO know more about the evidence before we decide who is/are the victim(s) in this case.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 03/04/2008 18:34

Lulumama - there are so many things wrong with your last post I dont know where to begin!

Rape is not about sex. It's not always about violence (although it is a physical assault). It is ALWAYS about power and control.

The permanent damage done to rape victims is horrific. It often has long term, life-lasting damage.

Victims often live in fear, have little or no self-esteem, they often have problems forming relationships with men. They feel shame for having "allowed" this to happen to them. They feel dirty. The stigma follows them around forever. They fear reporting because they dont think they'll be believed. (How ironic!) They also fear recriminations from their attacker. That's just the basics of it but it goes so much deeper.

I'm not suggesting in any way that it is okay for a woman to falsely accuse a man of rape. But I dont think the crimes are comparable and, imo between the two crimes (falsely accusing of rape and rape) certainly it is far easier for one victim to move on from their ordeal than the other - and I'm certain its the rape victim that has the greater struggle.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 03/04/2008 18:41

Absolutely ruty. The 'perceived' motivation behind the two crimes is wildly different - in fact they are completely opposing.

With perverting the course of justice (coz that's what it is) the motivation is always seen as a negative one on behalf of the offender (wanted to cause trouble, wanted revenge for being dumped/duped, etc)

With rape often the excuses for motivation have a positive spin/mitigation (for the accused) put on it "she didnt say no", "she shouldnt have been drinking" "she had invited him back to her place" "she had led him on/arranged contraception/started to have sex so too late to change her mind".

it sucks.

Mhamai · 03/04/2008 18:44

I did post something along those lines in my own post Scotia, however sadly and justly this is a very highly emotive area and it does tend to provoke sometimes very emotional posts. That said, I do think it's better for us all however enlightened or otherwise to have our say.

God knows MN has been a source of education I would never otherwise have had access to. I probably don't post as eloquently as some of the other posters but I have been fortunate to watch other posters debate sometimes thorny issues and have been educated where I may have otherwise been left in ignorant bliss.

Lulumama · 03/04/2008 18:44

vvvqv, i am not in any way undermining or diminishing the terrible aftermath of being a rape victim. nor am i suggesting the crime is anything less than a hideous and unforgivable one

what i was saying is that being falsely accused of such a crime can be immensley damaging, not commensurate with being a victim of rape., but damaging nonetheless

dittany · 03/04/2008 18:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 03/04/2008 18:55

All victims of crime suffer consequences at the hands of the offender, definitely.

There are some similarities between the aftermath of the two crimes in question here.

The defining factor is that if a man is accused of rape, and then found to have been falsely accused and the woman prosecuted she is likely to be found guilty.

If a woman is raped, the man is prosecuted and it goes to trial the man is unlikely to be found guilty.

It's really fucking scary actually.

dittany · 03/04/2008 18:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 03/04/2008 19:04

Thank you

I've had this sort of discussion on MN quite a few times now

yorkishbirdy · 03/04/2008 19:39

Dittany, I have not said at any point, that a not guilty verdict means nothing happened - in fact I am fairly sure I have not said anything that could even be mis-construed to mean that!

yorkishbirdy · 03/04/2008 19:45

I am also horrified that you have managed to pick up here that anyone is suggesting that being wrongly accused of rape is as bad as being raped. I have not seen any suggestion of that at all! The fact is that rape is amongst the most terrible of crimes close to murder and child molestation IMO. Being a false accuser is nothing like having it done to you - anlthough it must be pretty shit having people, wrongly, believe that you are capable of inflicting that level of hurt on someone. It is not the same but it is disgusting in it own right

dittany · 03/04/2008 19:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Monkeytrousers · 03/04/2008 19:51

That?s very interesting Lulu. If your perception about being accused of rape actually being worse than being raped is a common one, then we really are in trouble. And correct me if I?m wrong, but no one is saying being falsely accused is a ?walk in the park?. I am certainly not. I have already said, the costs to a man falsely accused are many ? and they are very easily measured ? as are the costs to women, both raped and especially those women raped and not believed. That is a terrible fate, but one 95% of all rape victims must endure.

If it were common, it would also be a misconception. The costs incurred by women far outstrip any loss of status that a man might suffer, which is the main grievance it seems. Men accused of rape are rarely abandoned by their partners for instance, where rape victims are ? and their kids as the man is more likely so see the rape as an act of cuckoldry and doubt the paternity of any children. Men might feel they have to move, and they do so ? a woman who is raped, is felt by her partner and who has dependent children (this is a common scenario, I?m not making this up for effect) is not so lucky in her choices. She is more likely to want to say close to her family for any support they can give (if she hasn?t been disowned by them) and that means staying ostracised in the wider community ? and a mothers low status effects her children?s chances to thrive.

But I?d try to get out of your mind the idea that she would be ?okay? if only because the CSA would still demand the father provide for the kids ? if you think the stats for successful rape prosecution are bad here ? you should look elsewhere and away from liberal democracies. The majority of women in prison in Pakistan are there for the crime of being raped for instance. So the idea that it is a worse crime for a man to be accused than a woman to be raped is pretty much global ? and this, I suspect, has a lot to do with male perspective bias, which has no idea of what it is to be raped or what is at stake, for self and family, emotionally and materially and so these costs to women have been ignored or diminished over the, well, over epochs probably. But evolutionary theory informs us of just how costly it is for a woman to be raped in direct comparison to the costs of being accused ? falsely (which occurs rarely) or otherwise. .

I am actually working on an essay about this at the moment.

VVV, the evidence points to rape being about sex, control and to a lesser degree violence ? but sex is very high in the mix. Even radical feminists are stepping down from that claim these days. Not that they do it very publicly unfortunately.

yorkishbirdy · 03/04/2008 19:56

Sorry Dittany, it was Ruty, I forgot to put her name first,

By ruty on Thu 03-Apr-08 18:22:37

very odd indeed to claim women who falsely accuse men of rape [though this happens incredibly rarely] deserve the same treatment as rapists themselves. Disturbing.

Lulumama · 03/04/2008 19:57

i absolutely did not see that being accused of rape was worse than being raped, monkeytrousers, i said it was damaging, but not commensurate with being raped.

Lulumama · 03/04/2008 19:59

did not say,not see

i have re read both my posts ,pertaining to that, and nowhere have i said it is worse to be falsely accused

Monkeytrousers · 03/04/2008 20:04

No you didn?t directly, but for give me , you seemed to imply it ?

?i thikn being wrongly accused of rape would be horrific, your life would be ruined, it is not the same as rape , as it is not physical, but the emotional impact would be horrendous.. you could lose your family, your job, your home, your life as you know it. i don;t thikn that being wrongly accsued would be a walk in the park"

I am not trying to flame you here, or even argue with you. I think your opinion, as it is expressed above is incredibly common. I don't think everyone who has that opinion is terrible. But I think we are as a society undereducated about the costs rape incurs to women.

Monkeytrousers · 03/04/2008 20:09

And I know you don't think it is worse or otherwise - I'm just using your post to discuss a wider perception that seems to be common.

I really thing that people don't think about this a lot - and maybe for good reason - but I also think they tend to unconscoulsy err on the side of caution for the male and against the female - thinking this is the lesser of two evils..

..though the way some people would seem to want all women who do not win their cases prosecuted and improsioned does seem to evoke the old witchhunt fever.

Lulumama · 03/04/2008 20:10

well, if you felt that i implied it, by saying it was not the same as rape, then that is your interpretation

i clarified in my second post it was not commensurate with being raped

and yet you thought i thought it was worse....

this kind of thing is your area of expertise, not mine, so i shall take my leave of this thread.

Lulumama · 03/04/2008 20:10

well xpost, but i don;t like my words being shown to prove a point a i did not make.

Kathyis6incheshigh · 03/04/2008 20:27

Lulu, I think people on this thread are being unfair to you - you didn't say anywhere you thought being accused was worse than being raped.

There are some excellent things being said on this thread about the impact of rape (by MT and VVV especially) but some very unfair implications about what Lulumama has said.

Monkeytrousers · 03/04/2008 20:35

Please don't leave the thread Lulu!

I don't know if anything I'm saying is correct yet! I need to test it. It's all just hypotheses and shit.

Lulumama · 03/04/2008 20:56

thank you kathy

monkeytrousers, you have a passion, a dedication , interest and knowledge in this subject that i cannot match

i have already had things ascribed to me i did not say ! and in a topic this sensitive and emotionally fraught, i do not want to end up with people scanning the thread, and coming away with a totally incorrect impression of my view point

my job is dedicated to protecting & supporting women at a vulnerable and intimate time ( i.e pregnancy and birth) i do not want to be misrepresented as someone who does not grasp the severity of the trauma around issues such as rape.

so i shall leave ( again!) and let you test out your hypotheses and shit on others

Monkeytrousers · 03/04/2008 21:01

Awww

Monkeytrousers · 03/04/2008 21:24

and now i have killed a really interesting thread with my bumbling geekyness