youtube gang rape "victim" arrested.

[wannaBe]

not so innocent after all?

oh no,MT,we cant have that.as one of your fans i will do it for you

I can't post much on this as I find it too upsetting (been there kind of thing) so it is good to read your eloquent and thoughtful posts, MonkeyTrousers so keep flying the flag and please don't stop!

mt - since you're writing an essay, your figures are wrong.

It is not true that 95% of rape victims see their attacker go free. we don't actually know the real figure of course, but of reported rapes, if 5% result in a conviction, then that only means that 95% of alleged victims see their alleged attacker walk free. because some women really do falsly cry rape sometimes. why they might do that I donb't know, but I do know they do it.

the low conviction rate is at least partly simply because of the fact that rape is hard to prove, and also hard to disprove - there are more false allegations of rape than other crimes precisely because of that. it's not all a conspiracy.

I do agree that the effects of rape on women are horrendous, but a false conviction for rape would also be horrendous (not that it happens much), and may also result in having to move etc. I don't really see the point in the comparison though.

finally, to those who see this case as evidence that victims are too easily blamed - how do you know? do you know the details of the case? I hate to break this to you, but people have been known to post fake videos on youtube.

I dont think anyone has suggested it is a conspiracy.

"the low conviction rate is at least partly simply because of the fact that rape is hard to prove, and also hard to disprove - there are more false allegations of rape than other crimes precisely because of that."

Your perception of there being more false allegations than other crimes is an interesting one. The fact that only 5% of rape cases end in a conviction (and that is 5% of only a small minority that get as far going to court in the first place) tells me the odds arent great in reporting a rape and something actually being done and a conviction obtained. So I'm not sure that your reasoning behind there being more false allegations on that basis makes any sense. I'd also like to see some evidence of there being more false allegations of rape than any other type of false allegation.

MT, I did mean to put an "always" in the statement "Rape is not about sex."
It is, of course, a great deal more complex than power and control. But, the driving factor behind a rape isnt necessarily borne out of sexual desire or need, but that sexual gratification is inevitably gained by carrying out the act.

(tis VVVQV btw!)

No, yes of course that's right. I wasn;t quoting from the essay, just writing off the top of me head.

I must find out what that figure is though - for false accusations. I have some memory fo it being abotu 2% - so just hypothetocally until I get the data from the Home Office again, that would mean 93% of rape victims will see their attacker go free. even if were 10% it would still mean that an incredible miscarriage of justce was occuring.

I think - and again it's just a hunch till I do the serious work on it - that looking at this issue, peoples perecptions of rape, might help us get closer to understanding why both men and women in juries tend to err on the side of caution in rape cases and not convict - with quite terrible consiquenses if the man is a serial rapist. It might be that our predjudices in this issue are far too deeply engrained and the answer might be not to go via juries at all. I dunno.

It is almost as if in rape cases there is no opresumtion of innocence to either side - one of them is lying so one is guilty of something. Not misunderstood or just wrong, but lying. We, as a species, male and female, seem to have no problem thinking it is the woman above the man. That's incredibly interesting me a geek like me.

I think I agree with not releasing the name until after conviction but thats by the by and won't help get closer to understanding and then hopefully tackling the dilemma.

and I'm doing my usual trick of thinking aloud on MN. It helps me with clarity

RB, well I don;t think we do live in an 'increasingly male-dominated world' not in this country anyway. If anything, it's increasinly female-focused, if not dominated.

Maybe not 'trusted' but certainly more respected for the influence they have. Oh, that gets pretty complicated so I'm not going there tonight. I must go to bed after this post.

All of our institutions were however set up in a male-dominated world and the natural ignorance of female perspectives will alomost certainly have affected them. How much needs to be seriosuly measured thjough, not just guessed.

One of the challenges will be to try to deciper what is a 'biological' and what is cultural - which will be tricky as they overlap a lot, but not impossible if what you are looking for is patterns.

I think there will be a connection between the many myths of female duplicity and the fact that we have concealed ovulation and also internal insemination. How a biological fear, male paternity insecurity, has pervaded for thousands upon thousands of years and how it is expressed in our culture. But that's too complicated too for now.

VVVQV is mistaken....

the 6% conviction rate is for those in total being reported to the police, not of those getting as far as a prosecution..and SP is of course correct in asserting the 'alleged' nature of the stats......

So 6% is total convictions through from reporting. How many of those reported make it through to prosecution? ie - how many prosecutions lead to a conviction?

This is a really interesting thread, but the posts are way too intelligent for me to add any comment to other than to say that I can't get the idea of her poor children having to have witnessed that out of my head
Feel sick to the stomach at the thought of it (whatever it was, rape or consensual) happening in front of them, seeing their mother being, to their minds, hurt, how will they ever get over that?

So if you report a rape, you've got under 14% chance of it going to trial, and even then, only 38% chance of obtaining a conviction against your attacker (who is likely to be known to you so no trouble with pinpointing/hunting down the assailant).

"And don't forget that a lot of rapists appeal and win their appeals." thereby making them no longer 'rapists'. Unless appearing in Dittany Crown Court.

Yes probably too much information but i spent 38 of my 40 odd years in denial of my own rape. Another couple of years of therapy.........still ongoing and even now as a trainee psychotherapist, I haven't even half dealt with some of the issues around it but thankfully through MN and VVVQV's thread many moons back did. Sorry I'm rambling a bit but I fucking hate statistics and so called research with a venegance! We know what we instintcually bloody know.

Please feel free to rip this post to shreds but this is my oppinion. Maybe if we just listened to each other instead of trying to kybosh each other with intellect and data we would come some small way to understanding this arena.

Ironically and quite scarily it is often that same where where you what where you wearing mentality that does often undo the brave few women that bring their stories of violence/Rape/abuse to court.

jesus, is it really not a given these days that rape convictions are, comparitively, ludicrously low.

That the numbers reported are lower than for any other crime. That the numbers followed up by police are lower than any other crime. That the numbers charged are lower than any other crime. That the numbers convicted are.. just.. well, I have no words to describe my shame at how low that number is.

To women like Metallic: does the rational bit of your brain think that it is statistically likely that only 5% (or whatever pitiful number is convicted) of the accused should be guilty?

Who, or what, are you protecting?

I'm genuinely confused by the point you're making dittany.

and wot's my initials got to do with this? Really confused on that one.

You're calling me a male chauvinist pig, are you??
Have you been drinking??

Prob. too late in the day to unpick this libelous mess.

(well past) Sleep time - but, no it wasn't my first thought, yes I do know what libellous means, no I haven't had a drink since a week last Friday, and yes the low conviction rate does bother me on quite a frequent basis.