youtube gang rape "victim" arrested.

[wannaBe]

not so innocent after all?

Oh Jesus wept dittany NO NO NO NO NO. Please don't mangle my words! I have not ever once discredited any woman's story but the truth, the sad truth is that, sometimes yes sometimes we, mysef included get carried away by so called research? statistics? Jesus fuckin christ, it's at times like this that I wish I could stand and have a conversAtion with you and countless other MN'rs face to face!

I will alway's uphols that speaking to someone. anyone, properly speaking mind you on an eye to eye level without predjudice and personal hurt standing in the wAY OF CLEAR HONEST COMMUNICATION. sHIT CAPS ARE GONE AGAIN.

I hardly ever contribute to these type of threads because A. I'm not as good and or eleoqaunt as some of the other posters. I'm going to snail back to my hidey hole but and I mean this sincerely dittany, sometimes, not always, but just sometimes we are actually all on the same side. We maybe perhaphs just say it more or less elequantly* than others.

dittany, i have tears in my eyes reading this thread and i want to thank you for standing up and speaking for the voiceless many.

i will say that i beleive that mhamai, and lulu for that matter, are well and truly on 'our side' (and yes i know that simplifying the discussion to 'sides' is crap)

but mostly i just want to say to you, and to vvvqv - thank you for being the voice i wish id had the strength to use.

The definition of rape has changed quite a bit under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 ( as well as associated notions, such as 'consent')) so it may be tricky to compare pre- and post-Act offences. In lots of ways we will not be comparing like-with-like. The definition broadens the range of abusive behaviours that qualify as 'rape' under Section 1 ofthe Act.

The British Crime Survey says that in 2005-6 14.449 opffences of rape were reported by the police - 92% of victims were women - *(cant find my notes about percentage that nake it to prosecution) - but it is known that only 16% of serious sexual crime is reported to police.

Can'tpost till tonight as at work.

Have you fell out of love with me VVV???

monkey - yes, maybe not 'increasingly' male dominated, but def still male dominated - just look around at our culture and the structure of many institutions with men having the major power.

you said -'I think there will be a connection between the many myths of female duplicity and the fact that we have concealed ovulation and also internal insemination. How a biological fear, male paternity insecurity, has pervaded for thousands upon thousands of years and how it is expressed in our culture. But that's too complicated too for now.'. Yes, I would agree that perhaps it does all stem from here.

just a question on the statistics being offered here.i am not refuting them but i have always been perlexed by the statistics concerning raoe and how they are calculated.

1. the statistics which state something along the lines of xx% of rapes go unreported. if they are unreported how can they be documented,and if they are not tried in a court of law how can they be so definitely defined as rape.
2. ones that state xx% of rapists walk free from court.if they have been found not guilty in a court of law how can they be defined as rape.

as i said at the start it is obvious to me from common sense and anectodle evidence that both happen a lot and it would not suprise me if most of the statistics on this thread are cmpletely accurae. i am just wondering if anyone knows how they compile such accurate statistics about unreported cases?

the BOD:

Not sure on the first point, although I suspect it's based on research vs. official figures, e.g. surveying 5,000 women as to how many believe they have been the victim of rape, vs. how many rapes have actually been reported.

On the second point, "xx% of rapists walk free" should more accurately and intelligently be read as "the conviction rate for people charged with rape is xx%".

LOL MT - no, I was jesting that I had fallen out of love with pan . Which of course is far from the truth. I still blardy love him even though he doesnt write, email, ring.......

mhamai - i take your point about statistics. It does take the emphasis and emotion out of it a bit. However, I think sometimes, the only way to get people to see just how bleak the outlook is for rape victims (on their own, or, compared to any other victim of crime), is to start talking in terms of numbers and percentages. Particularly when the "false accusations" argument is banded around. That's just how I feel about it.

I dont see it as an issue of sides as such, but very much feel a responsibility to ensure that everyone knows the facts (and if I learn more along the way too - even better ), that they dont perpetuate myths or falsehoods, and that people learn and understand rape and all the consequences of such a loaded four letter word. I think Lulumama's post was easy to misinterpret (and quite a few did so) and wanted to clear it up - I wasnt taking issue with her point of view at all and hope she feels she can come back.

Thank you mhamai and LM for your lovely comments! It means a lot actually, since it's easy to get emotionally bound up in this issue and attack or lash out at people.

TheBOD, I think you are adding 2 + 2 and coming up with 5 a little bit. The fact that someone isnt convicted of a crime merely means that there isnt enough evidence, or there is reasonable doubt with which to convict them. It doesnt mean the crime didnt happen, and, it doesnt mean that no rape occurred. It could mean that no rape occurred, but, I think that's a far too simplistic viewpoint and buys in to the whole "false accusation" thing. It isnt a case of either/or.

As far as the appeals are concerned - I don't know on what basis they are usually won, but I suspect that more are won due to lack of process or improper procedure. Perhaps someone can enlighten me?

RB, some aspects of sciety are male-dominated, just as some are female dominated. I don';t think it means a great deal to say something is male-dominated - it certainly doesn't have to always be a negative thing.

What we seem to be learning today is that many women choose to stay away from many 'male-dominated' industries, and when this is understood as a potive shouce made by many women, it should be viewed as a feminist triumph not failure, as it often is.

This isn't to say that women weren't explicitly excluded from many indistries in the past of couse, but there ceryainly seems to be certain industries that are female dominated today, and one of the reasons seems to be that that's the way men and women want it to be. I'm all for equality, but not enforced gender blind equality.

What needs to be tackled is that th status of female jobs needs to be upped, not making women feel quilty for not wanting what men have.

Bod. The British Crime Survey on rape is here You will find the info you wnat in chapter 2

Great link MT

"TheBOD, I think you are adding 2 + 2 and coming up with 5 a little bit. The fact that someone isnt convicted of a crime merely means that there isnt enough evidence, or there is reasonable doubt with which to convict them. It doesnt mean the crime didnt happen, and, it doesnt mean that no rape occurred. It could mean that no rape occurred, but, I think that's a far too simplistic viewpoint and buys in to the whole "false accusation" thing."

oh no i completely agree with this and understand it. my point was more to do with how can a survey claim with any authority that a rape happened if a person is vindicated in a court of law. i'm not saying guilty people don't walk free (i'm studying law and have seen many "guilty" people walk on technicalities), i'm asking if someone (lets assume they are guilty) commits a rape but are not convicted by the courts.how can a study prove that the rape happened to back up their statistics when the person has been tried and escaped conviction.
i don't refute the statistics as i am not well enough versed in the area to do so,nor do i want to blindly follow them however without knowing a bit more.
and i am well aware,as you say yourself, that no conviction does not mean no crime occurred.it can often just mean their is no evidence of the crime etc.

lulumama i wasn't referring to your posts when i said i found it disturbing that some people were equating rape with false accusation of rape. Somebody else said it.

how can anyone possibly know the real figure for false accusations though? because it's such a sensitive subject I imagine most false accusers would deny what they have done, even if asked in a confidential survey.

I'm not sure I'm following you there SP. Surely a false accusation, by it's nature, explicitly involves it being reported to the police? With the stats of alleged rapes that end up in court - i should think there are next to no miscarriages of justice?

Is it just deciphering of whether an allegation of rape reported to the police is in fact genuine you mean?

Actually scrap that last post. I was talking out the top of my head for a minute. Too distracted by tired children......

The report is intimidating I know, but it will answer a lot of these queries. The trick is to sleep on it (in my case for a few months) before trying to digest...