Extremism in British Mosques

[Monkeytrousers]

here

"Mosques in Britain are spreading a dangerous brand of extremism that would be outlawed in Iraq ? says the Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq."

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Why do you say that Sabaidii? What is wrong with discussing this? Please, I am genuinely interested in your opinion. Part of the problem is the lack of dialogue between secualists and Muslims about this. I have read Dawkin's, Hitchens and Harris. What it has left me really wanting to do is talk to Muslims, yet no one seems to want to address the issue. To say parts of a certain cluture are better than others is not racist. If a culture is sexism then that aspect of it is wrong. This applies to Islam and any other culture. The fact is though, western culture has done something about it, and still strives to improve upon itself. Islam is a massivly patriachal religion - that is a central element not a side issue.

Cote - I said "There are a lot of things about Islam that are incompatible with liberal democracy BUT there are also a lot of things that are compatible with it also."

This we can see in our day to day lives. Muslims, Christian's and athiests are not at war with one another in this country. But that doesnt negate the fact that there are a lot of cultural elements within Islam (and textual ones) that are abbhorent to the tenets of liberal democracy, such as female cirsumsition and infibulation, the inprisionment of homosexuals, arranged marriage, the concepts of honour and shame being a matter for women to uphold at an cost to themselves, lack of education, lack of freedom of movement and personal autonomy.

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Just to put my two euro centimes into the debate, Islam is no more and no less nonsensical/barbaric/oppressive/etc than any other religion. The difference is that, at this point in time, it is the only major religion left where the faithful actually believe every word of its book to be God's literal word.

As Christianity lived through a bloody time during the Dark Ages, finally people revolted and came out on the other side through a revolution, so will Islam. It will also have its bloodshed, bloody revolution, and finally, its Renaissance.

Meanwhile, there is nothing anyone can do from the outside. This has to come from inside Muslim countries.

Cote, does it have to come from Muslim countries or could it come from Muslims living in the west?

Real change will only happen when it comes from within muslim countries, not just muslims living in the west, imo.

trolley - Yes, you did say 'same God', my mistake.

Re Turkey & religion - I was born & raised in Turkey, where I lived until my late 20s. If you are going to try to contradict what I say about Turkey, you will have to do much better than Googling some article.

The God Delusion is still in print in Turkey. Some prosecuter has called the publishing house and got some information. There has been no court case. The publisher has not been told of any intention to take them to court.

It could possibly come to court, but I would be very surprised if it would lead to the book being banned. There are loads of atheist literature in print in Turkey. It is not agains any law to say you don't believe in God. That yours truly is alive and well is proof of that.

trolley - Yes, you did say 'same God', my mistake.

Re Turkey & religion - I was born & raised in Turkey, where I lived until my late 20s. If you are going to try to contradict what I say about Turkey, you will have to do much better than Googling some article.

The God Delusion is still in print in Turkey. Some prosecuter has called the publishing house and got some information. There has been no court case. The publisher has not been told of any intention to take them to court.

It could possibly come to court, but I would be very surprised if it would lead to the book being banned. There are loads of atheist literature in print in Turkey. It is not agains any law to say you don't believe in God. That yours truly is alive and well is proof of that.

"It will also have its bloodshed, bloody revolution, and finally, its Renaissance."

That's a bit fatalistic isn;t it? If it does happen, I really don;t think the West will be spared any of the bloodshed. This may well be the world out kids inhabit as adults. I'd like to think change could come without bloodshed.

D'y know, I think this dilemma would be quite easliy tackled and debated if we didn;t have sich a reactionary and right wing press here. All the scare mongering on Jeremy Vine and The front pages of the express does just that, scare people. And people generally want to get rid of the thinsg that scare them, not engage with them.

But I think I've been a bit foolish starting this. We all know it will just go round in circles and people will get upset over nothing. Soz

The article on Turkey is actually from Richard Dawkins, I doubt TD goggled it, rather she'll be a member. It is an indisputably very good source of data on this debate.

Kathy - Muslims living in the west make up a small percentage of total, and even if they try to change their countries of origins, they would be riled as traitors who take the side of their new countries.

They'd have to be some very brave Muslim's OMDB, braver than me I think!

There are a few, but like I said, they have written under pseudenoms or have fatwa's on them otherwise.

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It is Hirsi-Ali's argument that there is something inherent to the fundamental and immutable nature of Islam and its insistance on total submission that holds it's people back, economically and culturally in the case of it's refusal to educate and emancipate women, for instance.

Agghh! What am I doing! I cant escape!

MT, re 'that article on Turkey':

All it says is "A Turkish prosecutor launched an investigation into whether this best-selling book can incite a religious hatred in Turkey".

Prosecutor investigated (made some phone calls to publishing house) but did not bring it to court. The book is still in publication. What does that tell you?

I didn't say Turkey does not have some silly laws (this one: inciting hatred among population, another one: insulting Turkishness). I said its non-liberal sides don't have anything to do with its majority religion. It is a SECULAR country. State does not have religion. Women got the right to vote France, Portugal, and Spain.

Turkey needs to get a grip on freedom of speech etc but that is not a religious issue. You will get in trouble mostly for stuff like saying southeastern turkey is part of Kurdistan, saying anything unfavorable about Ataturk, or being disrespectful to Turkish flag. Nationalist BS rather than religious BS.

trolley -

"a country's backwardness in terms of democracy and women's rights has nothing to do with religion"

There is a HUMAN RIGHTS problem in Turkey, not a woman's rights problem. And the human rights problem is linked to its state's authoritatian roots, not to the nonexistent influence of religion on lawmaking.

Women have the same rights as men. Women got the right to vote in 1930, before a lot of European countries, and 15 years before Italy. If you have visited 'many many times' you must know women dress how they like, including topless on the beach alongside men. Turkey had a woman prime minister in 1990s.

Tell me something - Why are you fighting me? I am on your side. All I have done is point out a couple of mistakes in your posts.

This is one subject on which you are not going to win against me. Why are you even trying? Learn from what I say and make your arguments stronger thereby.

MT - re my prediction of a bloody revolution for Islam being 'fatalistic':

I would call it 'realistic', rather than 'fatalistic'. This is what I see coming, not soon but in perhaps 50-100 years or so. It will take another 2-3 generations of radicalisation on one side and its backlash from moderates on the other side for a clash to brew within Islam.

Personally, I would stay out of its way. However, if you are interested trying to influence this momentum in any way, I would be happy to talk about likely scenarios and what can be done to help any revolution and/or stay out of its way.

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i think people fear what they do not understand.
and that does not bode well for the future of the world because no matter how much you read, you wont understand everything.

"I'm only saying that it's nt thanks to the country's predominant religion but in spite of it."

Yes, and so?

Still, Turkey stands as a counterexample to the hypothesis that Islam and liberal democracy are incompatible.

I am only trying to say that it IS possible for Muslims to be governed democratically, in a secular country. It IS possible for Muslims to think religion is to be lived according to each man, in his own mind, and not something to be imposed by the state. To say the Muslim religion makes all this impossible is ignoring the facts.

Now, WHY there are not more examples is a more interesting conversation, imho.

Yes, CoteDAzur realistic, you;re right - but it isn;t inevitable..I hope. It IS bloody depressing though.

As for talking through scenarios, I canm picture the scene...MT and CotedAzure deep into negotiations in the Oval office; smoke settles like syrrus clouds above our heads as we puff on endless fags and contamplate the future of the secularist/islamist conflict - outside the world waits...snort

Hey I thought you wanted to start an intelligent conversation. Here it is. And it's not coming from 'a position of ignorance'. Shouldn't you be happy?

By the way, I quit smoking. So did you. Unless you relapsed in the last three days?

Just fantasising!