Extremism in British Mosques

[Monkeytrousers]

here

"Mosques in Britain are spreading a dangerous brand of extremism that would be outlawed in Iraq ? says the Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq."

age of consent is puberty. not some artificially imposed number.

a persons belief's are centralt o their being. you cannot claim to respect someone, and then insult them in the awful way you just have done.

but i am going to take kinder's advice and stay off this thread. you are not here for reasoned debate. but to slash and burn

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The bible has similar passages about women. Read the old testament.

psmlf at this thread.

Monkey, you may have wanted to initiate an intelligent discussion here but after the first few posts you should have just dropped it, it could only go downhill.

Move on ladies...

PS: btw, am a british muslim and would NEVER send my son to one of those mosques.....but that's not what you are discussing anymore is it?

Noooooooo, you clever people are commenting the holy book......have fun!

Trollydolly, I really can't fathom why you posted that link - you must have known all it would do is offend and inflame the discusson. You you imagine Richard Dawkin's, Hirsi Ali, Sam Harris or Chris Hitchens would do that? Do you think you are doing their arguments any justice at all by posting that? Who the hell would use that site for anything other than jeering!

Fine, you have the right to take the piss out of Islam, just as you have the right to tale the piss out of any religion here in the West and that is a privledge worth fighting for. You have the right to be offensive too, but why would you want to offensive in the first place is a bit beyond me.

BUT, FWIW, I don't think Trollydolly is being racist. There are a lot of things about Islam that are incompatible with liberal democracy BUT there are also a lot of things that are compatible with it also.

I think in the past multiculturalism has meant live and let live and there hasn;t been any real attempt at integrattion - all the evidence points to this being a mistake (the stuff avaliable in the mosques just one expression of this) and that the West needs to begin to value it's own culture just as much as others and get rid of its colonial guilt/native savage ideas, the nobel savage being a racist idea anyway..

Sorry, last one till I get back from work - I think the integration element can be focused on the women of Islam, but empowering them, educating them and not giving way to cultural relativism when it comes to human rights.

by empowering them

wow monkey, thanks for the lecture!

MonkeyTrousers - I will point my muslim female friends in your direction and you can empower them. They include a human rights lawyer, a legally qualified advisor in a women's project and a doctor. Two of them wear hijab because they want to make a political and personal point of their muslim identity.

Sorry if I have offended - but most Muslim women don't wear the hijab out of choice and are harrassed and worse if they leave the house not properly attired. The rights of women in Islamic societies are a feminist issue, not just for Muslim feminists either. Have a look at Phylis Cheslers page.

mt, you would enjoy debating with my cousin. trouble is, how do i get the two of you in contact, without outing myself to her as the mn obsessed loony?

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Trolley, it's not the disagreement so much as the overall aggressive manner. I've often said on here that I believe we should respect people, but we don't have to respect ideas, and should be free to question everything.

However, you launched onto this thread in a very aggressive manner, and made pronouncements, which is rarely going to show respect to others. There are other atheists on the board who manage to engage in these sorts of discussions without charging in and putting everyone's backs up, the same as looney fundies like me can manage to talk about things without screaming wild-eyed hysteria.

It's the difference between wanting a debate or wanting an argument.

It is a massivly difficult area - too big for me to deal with, which is why I am trying to talk to people about it. Islam (or to be more specific, political Islamism) poses many threats to liberal democracy and along with environmentalism, is probably going to be the prevaling issue this century.

MT - I am never going to speak in favour of anything that compromises human rights or free speech, and appreciate that there are many women (in many cultures) living subject to discrimination and opression. But empowerment is sometimes best in the hands of peple who are close to the situation and have a stake in it - rather than zealous peple from the outside decreing what should be!

Message withdrawn

Perhaps it's the difference between a society saying 'this is what we hold as our benchmark of rights and responsibilities in this society' and being clear and firm about that, rather than telling other people how they should be.

Oi Trolley, back off.
I'm well versed in Theo Van Ghogh's right to offend and al. You are preaching to a convert.

Just thinking this "discussion" is going nowhere as most not prepared to listen to this simple affirmation: "empowerment is sometimes best in the hands of peple who are close to the situation and have a stake in it - rather than zealous peple from the outside decreing what should be!" as blu wisely acknowledged 12:25:47

for my crap typing! I do know how to spell 'decreeing' etc!

Trolley, so, do you think it's an effective strategy to charge in with 'quotes' from specific books and a whole lot of moral outrage, then? Because I've seen a lot of this kind of 'debate tactic', and not once have I seen it result in generating a useful discussion.

Funnily enough, people who hold to certain beliefs don't always react very well when someone makes sweeping statements about them.

fwiw, my muslim friends suggest that the protests in Sudan were in large part misrepresented, but I get the impression you don't really want to discuss that, and would rather repeat the things you're already convinced of.

Please, by all means, prove me wrong.

and I also agree with Blu that imposing 'freedom' on people isn't a very good strategy for anything.

Leading muslim bodies (and ordinary population members)here were also angry at the whole Sudanese debacle! Genital mutilation is abhorrent - but not a muslim practice - it has cultural roots in certain african countries - the majority of muslim countries / communities do not practice it. (though many British Victorian doctors did...for the control of women's 'hysteria' and waywardness)

Sue - hence the total and predictable failure in Iraq.