Archie Battersbee thread 5

[henryhihat]

New thread...

why are you here then

Omg so now I'm being deleted for quoting actual science

I give up

EYP. Lots of us are distressed by this. We are seeing a mum in her worst nightmare being exploited and falling apart publicly.

For someone who deals with children who have end of life care - and sometimes where appropriate in a hospice and has attended more than 10 funerals of children in as many years this is hard to watch.

I want to hold that poor mum and tell her to stop blaming herself and fight for him. That it's ok to let him go. She hasn't failed him.

I hate what she is being allowed to do in public that will never go away for her.

@EYProvider

im not sure why you are vilifying this poster

she is right - It is FACT that the only person who knows why Archie put the ligature his head is Archie. It is FACT that's what's lead to this consequence of him being in a coma and brain dead.

I’m not sure why saying this is seen as contentious by some?

And it's not entertaining.

But because of the shear fact what's being allowed to happen with Ms Dance is so dreadful it's very important imo we can discuss how to prevent this happening again.

That is a pretty low thing to say.

Yes I can imagine this too, which would be absolutely awful for everyone concerned. I wonder if the nurses feel intimidated and maybe its safer to work in pairs now, I am not sure I would want to change or alter any settings or infusions without a second witness in case I was accused of malpractice and incompetence

I’d really like to thank people for sharing their legal and medical expertise to help people better understand why this case is in court, what is actually happening and what it means for society. It’s generous of you to take the time and many people, myself included, have clearly found it helpful.

I’d also like to ask - again - for people to take their spats, interpretations of people’s past, character or mental health, emotive language and personal comments off the thread. It’s unkind and unhelpful anyway, but it’s also deeply inappropriate as a child is dying. There will plenty of further comment once there is an inquest. Right now, it should be all about Archie’s best interests, not finding ‘the truth’.

It is annoying, but I don't think MN admin read the reported posts half the time. They seem to delete if reported sometimes. It's not right, but not much we can do about it.

It is sad but also distressing for hospital staff to be subject to numerous allegations such as
"Some more accusations she has made against the hospital include (These were made publicly in an article listed below):
She stated Archie got sepsis because the hospital refused to clean his room.
Now he opens his and eyes and is very drowsy.
She states again they are starving him.
She wants Archie to not be sedated. (Yet later admits he is not on sedation.)
She thinks the MRI is wrong because she only saw 8 teeth in it instead of 13.
She thinks necrosis is reversible.
She thinks that they purposely put Archie on muscle relaxers so he'd fail the precursor test
She equates children being put near the nurses desk as them zeroing out a child to kill not that they require extra attention because they are in a seriously bad way.
She accuses the hospital of attempting to cause cardiac arrest by giving him potassium."

There appears to be a lot of allegations made against the hospital and it's staff. I feel for all involved and hope an investigation finds out what really happened and the poor boy is allowed to go peacefully.

I really fear that she's asking for oxygen because she truly believes Archie will try to take breaths.

He won't and if she really truly believes he will I think she is going to be hugely distressed when he doesn't - I am pretty certain I would be if I were expecting a breathing response and got none.

I also think she believes she will travel with him and I can't see how it is possible.

So if by some bizarre circumstance the courts permit him to be moved, he is going to die in a corridor, lift, ambulance, without her... and that leaves the staff open to all manner of claims.

I really hope she has some sensible support because as soon as he is officially gone, the CLC are going to drop her like a stone, and she is going to be filled with rage and a desire to fight all sorts of people, with zero support, and a very real risk if she carries on as she has, of legal action being taken against her.

I really don't care what she's done in the past or what shes made the wrong decisions over here, she's been wound up and let go and very very soon the winder-uppers are going to step back and leave her to crash over a cliff all by herself.

When my mum had to stop chemo it was a discussion between her and her consultant.

No one made her (although I appreciate if they refuse she can't have it iyswim?).

But it was a discussion about risk vs benefit. The weekly chemo held the cancer back but it never went and never would. It stopped it ravaging her body at the speed it otherwise would.

But it started having other side effect on her body.

So it became a point the cancer would ravage her or the treatment to prevent that would cause her death.

Sometimes I think people see modern medicine as a miracle cure all.

We are very lucky to have such advanced medicine free at the point of access.

But death cannot be prevented ever. We will all die. And we will die because modern medicine cannot stop it unconditionally.

What it can do and does well is treat people where they may well have died earlier where that organ or cell responds to the treatment.

This is so heartbreaking. I think his mum is wrong in her belief but she does genuinely believe that her son can better given time. Rather than vilifying her for that surely we have to question why her trust in those caring for her son has failed so utterly. At some point the system has failed her, failed to communicate and help her understand and come to terms with what has happened to her child. Until we can identify that failure tragic cases like this will keep happening.

My heart goes out to all those involved, the healthcare professionals, the lawyers and judges, his family, and most of all Archie. Harrowing for everyone.

I really don't care what she's done in the past or what shes made the wrong decisions over here, she's been wound up and let go and very very soon the winder-uppers are going to step back and leave her to crash over a cliff all by herself.

This. It seems to be the concern we all share here.

What happens next for Hollie. She's already in the depths of despair and being exploited by people who will vanish in a puff of smoke when the next big story comes along.

I can understand why there is reticence about discussing the family background in this case.

That said, I think whilst some points are not "in the spirit" it can also frustrate the opportunity for understanding why Hollie is behaving as she is.

I'm going to word this very carefully....

Hollie herself has made public that Archie had a diagnosis of ADHD and had SEN. It's also in the public domain that she had struggled (as many, many parents sadly do) to get what she felt was appropriate educational support for him.

There are many threads on MN that demonstrate the fight parents have had to engage in over many years to get not only a diagnosis but after that SEN (and wider) support for their children and there is no reason to conclude Hollies experience was any different.

In that context, is it at all surprising that she has developed a manifest distrust in "authority" when it comes to acting in Archie's best interests or that she as a mother is the only person whose put those needs first?

Equally, I think it would be understandable if she felt "authority" and "state services" had let Archie down and that was a significant factor in driving the incident (by intent or by misadventure) that took his life. Yet only now does the state seek to intervene on the basis his welfare is paramount.

I'm not condoning her choices or her rhetoric against the hospital but I also feel that there may be reasons why she is acting as she is beyond being bloody minded for the sake of it (as has been suggested), needing to win or being manipulated by the CLC/AA.

I just think we need to be mindful that human behaviour is complex and without all the background (which nobody really knows in detail) it's impossible to know what's driving Hollie and she may well have good reason to be skeptical of state services even if in this situation those reasons are mis-placed.

The Hospital say moving Archie would be too risky, meaning he would die possibly in the ambulance, but they are going to remove treatment so he is going to die. If there is no difference in the outcome why not let the parents have their wish ?

I don’t think she’s been failed tbh. The system works fine 99.99% of the time. I think this is more a case of user error than a failing system. The biggest failure is that this has been allowed to go on for so long, so many decisions have been made and reneged on and Archie’s interests have been placed secondary to those of his mum.

Fladder some people just have an innate distrust of authority. It maybe from early life or just personality. But these people exist.

They genuinely believe if you aren't with them - you're against them.

They cannot debate or accept others have a different POV but yet still want to help you.

It must be a lonely place to be.

there is the theoretical possibility that a court can make an order preventing further applications without the permission of the court

I take your point about this being unlikely, Cantanka, but could one court bind another anyway? In other words, if they were blocked from applying to (say) the high court, surely that wouldn't prevent them approaching the supreme court/ECHR/ whoever instead?

A further thought concerning whether Hollie would sue if she felt Archie died "inappropriately" is who would fund any such action? Once he's gone I can't quite see that there'll be anything in it for CLC any more, and I'd be amazed if she was prepared to use the GoFundMe money

This child is not resuscitable he would require intubating you cannot bag someone with an ambu bag forever for a whole variety of reasons. He requires ventilation to breath once he is no longer attached to a ventilator he will die very quickly and peacefully because he has NO awareness because he is brain stem dead this is why the ventilator and all the medication etc keeping him alive can be turned off/stopped.

Those are very much my thoughts after being directed to do the same thing this morning.

This is an important case for discussion, both in its legal implications and because we often don't talk nearly enough about the reality of end of life.

The case has prompted me to make a "living will" (more properly known as an Advance Decision, I believe) and set out my own wishes around refusing lifesustaining treatment if I am minimally conscious. There's a really good template to follow for anyone who wishes to do the same linked through www.compassionindying.co.uk .

BecUae that's not in Archie's best interests and that is what the basis of this case and court proceedings is about.

Sorry, link above should actually be compassionindying.org.uk/