Page 8 | Archie Battersbee thread 5

MissyB1 · 04/08/2022 13:25

thereisonlyoneofme · 04/08/2022 13:21

The Hospital say moving Archie would be too risky, meaning he would die possibly in the ambulance, but they are going to remove treatment so he is going to die. If there is no difference in the outcome why not let the parents have their wish ?

Well he may die in the corridor on the way to the ambulance, he may die in the ambulance (there won't be room for the parents in there because of the equipment), he may die as he is being physically lifted onto a trolley... etc

None of that is very peaceful or dignified, and it may mean his parents aren't actully with him.

Perplexed0522 · 04/08/2022 13:25

The Hospital say moving Archie would be too risky, meaning he would die possibly in the ambulance, but they are going to remove treatment so he is going to die. If there is no difference in the outcome why not let the parents have their wish ?

Because the doctors feel that Archie deserves more than dying alone in the back of an ambulance.

Floralnomad · 04/08/2022 13:26

thereisonlyoneofme · 04/08/2022 13:21

The Hospital say moving Archie would be too risky, meaning he would die possibly in the ambulance, but they are going to remove treatment so he is going to die. If there is no difference in the outcome why not let the parents have their wish ?

Because the hospital have to work in the best interest of the patient , not the patients relatives .

thesecretshame · 04/08/2022 13:26

Actually I don't think the christian group will drop her - only as they have an 'in' to get 'Archie's Law' pushed out while sympathy is high and before the inquest changes any public opinion. I personally feel that they will use HD's anger and grief to be the personal face of a heartbroken mother to help drive their agenda to get some sort of 'heartbeat' law in by the back door.

dapsnotplimsolls · 04/08/2022 13:26

I had a look at the Mail website earlier and had to scroll down quite a long way to find anything on this story. It looks like the media is losing interest now it's no longer about his 'fight for life'.

sammylady37 · 04/08/2022 13:26

But death cannot be prevented ever. We will all die. And we will die because modern medicine cannot stop it unconditionally

I think this is something that’s actually not talked about enough. I know from firsthand experience (I’m a hospital consultant) that some people think death is optional, that it is always preventable and that when it happens it’s down to error or negligence. It’s incredible how this woman thinks her brain dead child, whose brain is literally rotting in his skull, is “doing ok” and has a prospect of recovery.

itsgettingweird · 04/08/2022 13:27

AquaticSewingMachine · 04/08/2022 13:24

This is an important case for discussion, both in its legal implications and because we often don't talk nearly enough about the reality of end of life.

The case has prompted me to make a "living will" (more properly known as an Advance Decision, I believe) and set out my own wishes around refusing lifesustaining treatment if I am minimally conscious. There's a really good template to follow for anyone who wishes to do the same linked through www.compassionindying.co.uk .

Thankyou.

I've been considering doing this since my mum died of cancer.

I wouldn't want my ds to have to make a decision and I think his autism would make that so difficult for him emotionally.

Actually maybe not - his back and white thinking would probably mean he just said "well she's dead".

fizzywat · 04/08/2022 13:27

I wonder how many people have had life support withdrawn since April? You know, those situations that are hopeless, where the family is consulted and advised with compassion and care. The dignity of the patient and what is best for them under the circumstances are paramount.

Very many I would suggest. Does that mean that none of them "fought" hard enough to keep their relative existing then? The subtext of what the mother is saying seems to suggest that. That is not good in my opinion.

I am very sorry to say it, but I am losing empathy with the mother now. It is about her son and his dignity, it is not about her and never was.

Fladdermus · 04/08/2022 13:28

LindseyStauffer · 04/08/2022 13:22

I don’t think she’s been failed tbh. The system works fine 99.99% of the time. I think this is more a case of user error than a failing system. The biggest failure is that this has been allowed to go on for so long, so many decisions have been made and reneged on and Archie’s interests have been placed secondary to those of his mum.

Show quote history

But then if you read @BreadInCaptivity 's post it does explain how she's been failed by the system and why she doesn't trust them.

LovinglifeAF · 04/08/2022 13:28

thereisonlyoneofme · 04/08/2022 13:21

The Hospital say moving Archie would be too risky, meaning he would die possibly in the ambulance, but they are going to remove treatment so he is going to die. If there is no difference in the outcome why not let the parents have their wish ?

Because they have to act in the best interests of Archie. Not based on what his parents want.

Soubriquet · 04/08/2022 13:28

She really is determined to fight every decision isn’t she

whynotwhatknot · 04/08/2022 13:28

itsgettingweird · 04/08/2022 13:16

When my mum had to stop chemo it was a discussion between her and her consultant.

No one made her (although I appreciate if they refuse she can't have it iyswim?).

But it was a discussion about risk vs benefit. The weekly chemo held the cancer back but it never went and never would. It stopped it ravaging her body at the speed it otherwise would.

But it started having other side effect on her body.

So it became a point the cancer would ravage her or the treatment to prevent that would cause her death.

Sometimes I think people see modern medicine as a miracle cure all.

We are very lucky to have such advanced medicine free at the point of access.

But death cannot be prevented ever. We will all die. And we will die because modern medicine cannot stop it unconditionally.

What it can do and does well is treat people where they may well have died earlier where that organ or cell responds to the treatment.

similar with my late mum-in the end the treatment actually killed her and sometimes theres nothing you can do-i do appreciate peolple not wanting chemo now

Trinity65 · 04/08/2022 13:29

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

What a nasty comment
Proof she is a narcissist ?
Seems the IN Thing on here these Days calling people a Narc .

figmaofmyimagination · 04/08/2022 13:29

I have some relevant (though indirect) professional experience of people who are angry and fighting you before they’ve even met you. A quick Google shows that this isn’t her first battle against authorities or companies, but obviously this time this stakes couldn’t be higher for Hollie and sadly she seems unable to listen the science to anyone whose opinion differs from hers.

I don’t “judge” her for that- we all respond differently in times of crisis and finding him hanging is about as traumatic an incident as I can imagine- but I do think her capacity and ability to safeguard him have been impaired, and so I think it’s entirely right and appropriate that the medical and judiciary systems have swung into action to protect Archie’s best interests instead. I am proud of our country in this regard. That is exactly how it should work and I hope that if I ever temporarily lost my ability to keep my children safe from harm that the system would catch them in the same way.

My initial takeaways from this, were I a policymaker, would be:

These online armies are harmful and should be banned,

If it doesn’t already exist, legislation should be enacted so that that dreadful Christian group could be forcibly disbanded- and preferably prosecuted under some sort of “preying on the vulnerable” grounds,

There should be much tighter media reporting guidelines,

The number of appeals available to a family in this situation should be limited, and

Parents should not be able to legally withhold consent for such vital medical tests.

I hope so desperately that he is allowed to peacefully pass soon.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 04/08/2022 13:30

May I just add that, having checked out the "Army" site, it seems likely that some are indeed intending to target this one

If that's the case, may I also suggest it might be better not to engage?
At least on MN most of this sensitive discussion is reasonably respectful, and it would be a shame to see that spoiled by those unable to express themselves without the kind of language we've already seen too often

Quia · 04/08/2022 13:30

bloodyplanes · 04/08/2022 12:10

The media will literally chew her up and spit her out when Archie has passed and they have got what they want from her. They will have an absolute field day during the inquest. Shouldn't one of her so called advisors be warning her of this?

I suspect CLC will run for the hills when it comes to the inquest. They have zero interest in finding out the facts, in fact I suggest they would rather not.

TitoMojito · 04/08/2022 13:31

thereisonlyoneofme · 04/08/2022 13:21

The Hospital say moving Archie would be too risky, meaning he would die possibly in the ambulance, but they are going to remove treatment so he is going to die. If there is no difference in the outcome why not let the parents have their wish ?

They are trying to ensure the family will be by his side when he dies. If they try to move him, he'll probably go suddenly in a random place (hallway, ambulance bay, ambulance itself) and that's a far less peaceful passing than if they all stayed together in the hospital room. I'm sure if they could accommodate moving him to a hospice, they would. But it would be worse for everyone involved.

canyoutoleratethis · 04/08/2022 13:32

catinboots123 · 04/08/2022 13:08

Omg so now I'm being deleted for quoting actual science

I give up

Don't give up. You are right and are just stating facts. That doesn't mean we're not all terribly, terribly sympathetic about the death of a child. But the uncomfortableness of the truth shouldn't be used as a reason to shut down discussion.

Quia · 04/08/2022 13:32

EYProvider · 04/08/2022 12:06

This thread is shocking. People are speculating on how this child died and whether the mother is hiding something. Jesus, it’s unseemly.

I don’t understand why MN are allowing it.

It's also quite shocking that someone is trying to stifle discussion.

SummerWithMyHorse · 04/08/2022 13:32

I've been on both sides of this which I imagine is somewhat of a rarity. As an anaesthetist working on ICU, I had had conversations with families regarding end of life and also having my son admitted 6 years ago to another unit following an out of hospital cardiac arrest. He was resuscitated by paramedics in the street.

I knew he'd had a long 'down time' without oxygen and an anoxic/hypoxic brain injury and his prognosis was extremely poor but I still asked the consultant when I arrived if he would recover - just for something say more than anything....he even looked at me in surprise so I just nodded and stayed quiet.

My son was still breathing spontaneously at that point (intubated and on a ventilator but taking his own breaths with a bit of pressure support). However, CT scan x 2 and an ongoing unresponsive state (GCS of 3) meant that treatment was futile, sadly.
I agreed with the ICU team that withdrawal of treatment was in my son's best interests and also to organ donation although he wasn't 'brain stem dead' at that point.
He did progress to this over the next 48 hours though as the brain injury worsened. This is what happens when the brain doesn't receive oxygen for a period of time and then paradoxically a further injury happens when the circulation is restored. This is a 'reperfusion' injury and can't be stopped or altered unfortunately.

Due to the care he received, his organs including even his heart were transplantable. So healthy internal organs but that doesn't mean he was alive in any way.
I'm not sure if it made it easier or more difficult understanding the pathway but in the end, it's perhaps equally difficult whatever your background.

Purplepatsy · 04/08/2022 13:32

I can't imagine how it would be for Archie to be transferred to a narrow ambulance trolley, everything connected to him being moved about for that transfer, then another journey through hospital corridors and outside, then jiggled about into the ambulance, then an unstable bumpy journey, then all the above in reverse. Then, once his ventilation is stopped, he will, sadly, die very rapidly.

What an awful thing to put him through.

But he won't 'go through ' anything at all, he has no consciousness.

crochetmonkey74 · 04/08/2022 13:33

TheCountessOfGrantham · 04/08/2022 12:50

I've been reading into her background this morning from some links to a website people posted on an article from the Independent. People who were saying her page is absolute nuts and she's using him. It's all full of screen grabs.

She has been very litigious in the past and she does seem to be changing her stories on what happened. There are people saying he attempted suicide in his sister's room the night before and that he was unsupervised the following day which is why he was able to do what he did and not be be found for a little while. He was by all accounts a quite lonely, sensitive and depressed little soul

Lots of information about his home life which I'm not going to share on here but you can find it if you look and if you want to.... it all seems really complicated and it's making me wonder if it's about Archie or if it's about his mum and her enduring drive to win, which is being exploited and taken into overdrive by the Christian group and her social media page.

And having now seen the photos she shares on her page of him, I agree the media should be using those and not the one of him looking beautiful and healthy, because it paints such a false picture of who is really lying in that hospital bed. It's so so sad.

Can you link to the site please?

itsgettingweird · 04/08/2022 13:33

sammylady37 · 04/08/2022 13:26

But death cannot be prevented ever. We will all die. And we will die because modern medicine cannot stop it unconditionally

I think this is something that’s actually not talked about enough. I know from firsthand experience (I’m a hospital consultant) that some people think death is optional, that it is always preventable and that when it happens it’s down to error or negligence. It’s incredible how this woman thinks her brain dead child, whose brain is literally rotting in his skull, is “doing ok” and has a prospect of recovery.

It's not - I agree.

Humans seem to be evolving into believing they are some kind of bigger force than anything else.

I still find it hard daily to get my head around my mums death.

But she had every chance to live a long as possible. And she took them all through choice. Other opportunities such as immunotherapy were withdrawn when further tests discovered it wouldn't help.

Modern medicine kept my mum with us for over 5 years when her cancer has a 20% 5 year survival rate.
To me that's fantastic against realistic odds.

But I'm also very realistic in knowing those last 5 years weren't the life she had before. Maybe some of the time she was in remission for a year after the first treatment (again a miracle so they actually tested twice!) .

Medicine kept her alive and as healthy as it could make her. It didn't give her a quality of life. It gave her a life. It gave her a life she was grateful to have and we all told her when enough was enough for her she'd have our support.

RubyWho · 04/08/2022 13:36

Bread, I agree. You’ve worded this brilliantly.

figmaofmyimagination · 04/08/2022 13:37

Purplepatsy · 04/08/2022 13:32

I can't imagine how it would be for Archie to be transferred to a narrow ambulance trolley, everything connected to him being moved about for that transfer, then another journey through hospital corridors and outside, then jiggled about into the ambulance, then an unstable bumpy journey, then all the above in reverse. Then, once his ventilation is stopped, he will, sadly, die very rapidly.

What an awful thing to put him through.

But he won't 'go through ' anything at all, he has no consciousness.

So he doesn’t deserve a dignified death anymore? Wow.