Archie Battersbee - Thread 3

[BongoJim]

Follow on from previous full thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/in_the_news/4596573-archie-battersebee-case-thread-2?page=1

Soubriquet - love that. Thank you. I don't agree with the family's actions at all but am very concerned by the nature of some of the comments on this thread.

Apparently the hopsital have given them till 9 tommrow to file with the European Convention on Human Rights. So may be next move? Or leaving that and looking now at hospices

She will appeal. This time to the European court of Human rights.

I get she can appeal but she must know the answer. She said on Sky she knew most likely it'd be turned down. Guess it's buying time but for his other family or friends who don't know if coming or going must be hard. And for her in a way clinging onto that small bit of hope to be dashed again and again

The group were misled on what was actually happening today. They believed the appeal had been accepted.

So now they've got until 9am to submit the paperwork to the hospital for moving to a hospice, and they'd already asked for additional time ...

Frankly I'm starting to wonder why they're now almost inviting further appeals, especially as the courts have made it very clear that further delay - even by a day - really isn't in Archie's interests

If their primary interest is in the welfare of the patient, and since as things stand there's no barrier to support being withdrawn, it's getting harder to understand why it's not just done. After all, if Hollie's at the hospital it's not as if they'd be doing it without her having the opportunity to be present

His doctors have said he is declining... what is the point of expending her energy on appeals etc?
He could crash whilst she is sat there filling in a form for yet another appeal.
Her support network seems to be an echo chamber of people agreeing that the NHS plan to murder him, or that he will at some point wake up and ask to go back to MMA.
Surely there is someone close to her that can get through this wall she has put up, that can say what the reality is?
I just get the feeling that everyone feels they are walking on eggshells because after all, she is a grieving mother. No one (even on MN it seems) can say much more than hope and prayers, and how amazing she is.

He'd still be under the care of the hospital trust I expect, so the order would still apply.

When my child was in hospital, we were able to leave to take her to the cafe, and on the occasions she was well enough, to the Ronald McDonald house. If the opportunity had arisen, we'd have been able to take her 'out' or even on home leave for the weekend.

It was clear though that she was still the hospital's patient, and if she didn't return at the allotted time, wed be called, and if they couldnt get hold of us, the police would be called.

There are many reasons why transfer to a hospice may not be practical here, but jurisdiction of the order probably isn't one of them.

I just get the feeling that everyone feels they are walking on eggshells because after all, she is a grieving mother. No one (even on MN it seems) can say much more than hope and prayers, and how amazing she is.

I get your frustration but imagine if this was you. You’re crazed with grief and desperate to do anything.

You come back here once it’s all over, after realising you was wrong, to read people calling you a terrible mother and all sorts of shit. It would make you feel so much worse.

Is it not possible that transporting Archie’s body would risk really damaging it after the deterioration in how condition? I know some would say it doesn’t matter after death but it would matter the the majority of families. I can see why that would work after a death where the person’s body is still relatively robust. I’m confident all of the available support, practical and emotional, will be being provided. The hospital do this every day.

All bodies are transferred after death.

Some from a hospice to a mortuary.

Some from a ward to the mortuary.

Always from a mortuary to a funeral directors.

There are ways to treat a dead body to preserve it enough to be moved.

I have been to funeral directors to pay my respects to children who have passed away. Every single time they've looked healthier in death than the did at end of life.

As awful as it sounds, Hollie is the one has made it a public issue. She could have even gone through the court process with no media attention.
People in the public eye attract comments, and some can be not so nice.

@XenoBitch
her facebook group is locked down currently - if that is the support network you mean
we dont know what her immediate rl family and friends are saying

I know she has but she’s clearly not thinking straight or of the long term consequence. She’s thinking of now. How can I save my child. She won’t accept she can’t. Not yet

although the relative is also in combat mode on the video i saw

When faced with a parent accusing you publicly which will go global of executing Theo child you have to make sure you tell them every option they have to fight you if they disagree.

I also think that maybe right now the parents aren't getting all the information every second. Imagine being a staff member caring for Archie - you'd be afraid to speak in case those words landed you in court personally being sued.

There are literally no winners in a situation like this.

What about the hospital staff who are reading awful comments about them? Holly doesn't just get to say these things without judgement because she's grieving. Grief is not a get out of jail free card to say or do whatever you want. She invited public opinion when she repeatedly pushed it into the public eye.

But can these aforementioned ways still be done whilst the body is still being kept artificially "alive" by machine?

Yep, accusation the NHS are murdering their son, but also relying on them to keep all of his bodily functions going.
Her story as to how he ended up in his current state has also been inconsistent.
I do not blame anyone for having doubts about her.

@bellamountain Are you being deliberately obtuse? Its glaringly obvious she is not educated from the way she talks ( the words and phrases she uses) to her posts on AA and social media. Also telling blatant and easily disproved lies on national television is not really a massive indicator of someone being highly educated is it!

@Miffee You asked about the tests. A pp has explained it all very well. I'm on the app so can't direct you to a page, but I think it was around lunchtime today.

Much as I agree he is effectively dead, I can fully understand why the point of withdrawal of life support is the point of death for his poor mum. I have sympathy therefore with a potential desire to have a transfer to a hospice, but I think the window of time for that option is long past. That level of upheaval is obviously not in his best interests.

IANAL, but as I understand, appeals are based on if the law has been applied correctly in the first instance rather than on the merits of the decision. Therefore would 'taking it to the EHRC' follow the same basis, or given it's a different jurisdiction, do they start again from scratch? Is there a 'pre' stage like you get in the UK over whether you even have a case to take? I'm just trying to get a feel for what happens next?

I know it is so different but the care my father was given in a London teaching hospital following a traumatic brain injury was faultless. The staff listened to us and together we agreed his care. When it came to the point of withdrawing they discussed with me and my family in detail but ultimately made sure the burden of that decision was not ours and for that I am eternally grateful. They made my fathers last days dignified and peaceful and I honestly couldn’t have asked more of them. I cannot imagine what Archies family are going through however I know deep in my soul that the NHS staff caring for him and making decision are doing so with his best interest. I hope that his family get the care and support they need now and in the coming months what an utterly heartbreaking situation - I send my love and strength to them.

But can these aforementioned ways still be done whilst the body is still being kept artificially "alive" by machine?

No idea.

I suggested it would be something that if possible could be discussed with Ms Dance that he goes to the hospice after he's died. For her to spend that time with him and get the support she needs - and so she isn't suddenly alone with her thoughts and grief.

Picking up on the resources point. I work in Theatre's and every single shift the consultants have to negotiate whose surgery can go ahead and whose has to be cancelled due to the lack of Critical Care beds.

Sometimes all surgery goes ahead, knowing the ITU Care isn't possible....so the patient will remain ventilated in Theatre Recovery and the nurses there will have to stay and do a 14.5hr shift. The nurses do not get a choice and are not ITU trained.

Cheers @MaggieFS I'll scroll back now I know roughly welfare it is.

With respect, and I don't want to be pugnacious but I don't think that should happen. Hospices don't have infinite space, we've seen personal anecdotes right here of people whose relatives have had to wait for a hospice bed, it's inadmissible they should take a place after his death. This would be another example of how it's starting to be all about what Hollie wants and not the best interests of Archie (and potentially other patients being affected indirectly by this)