Archie Battersebee case-thread 2

[whynotwhatknot]

ongoing from previous thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4573803-archie-battersbee-case?page=40

there's a young girl now 7yo (Tafida Raqueeb) who was taken to Italy by her parents for treatment - traumatic brain injury and the hopital were going to withdraw treatment
The parents want to bring her back to the UK now and set up specialist centres

Don;t know what quality of life or after effects she has from the traumatic event

So yes miracles do happen but every case is different .

It would appear from the repports that Archie is too unwell to move from the room let alone transport to another country

Someone commented on another forum that it's likely to have to go back to the Judge if Hollie won't agree a time/date for withdrawal of support with the medical team.

So that's another delay she can rely on.

It strikes me that that wouldn’t be such a bad way out. She has capacity. She’s been given all the relevant information over and over. The court has ruled withdrawing treatment is in Archie’s best interests (or rather than continuing it is not. Is that the same thing?) Archie can’t experience any distressing consequences. And it’s taking huge intervention to keep Archie breathing and huge intervention from elsewhere to keep his mother fighting. Wouldn’t everyone get what they need from that?

Except it’s deeply unethical to withdraw treatment because his mother thinks he will live, and it might be more distressing for the family and staff, depending on exactly what happens when you reduce vasopressin (if seizures and so on might be the result)

I couldn’t do it. Not knowing it wasn’t the right thing, and the staff must have to be so careful. Mum could easily say later she was too stressed and irrational and the staff didn’t withdraw treatment in the right way etc. they can’t leave themselves open to anything in such a high profile case.

And we won’t know what the hospital are doing or planning, because they are bound by confidentiality, whereas the courts and Mum are not. I wonder how long they can ethically continue providing treatment given that the courts has already ruled its not in Archie’s best interests and that appeal has been denied. Surely not just because Mum says she is planning to go to another court? That could go on indefinitely. I know they wait for an appeal, because it’s expedited, and they want the family to truly feel they have tried everything possible (which is important for some families) but how far on does that go? The hospital could presumable start withdrawal anytime, as the best interest ruling is in place. They don’t have to wait for a court order (do they?) Obviously they will try to work with Mum, because they are good people, but they must draw the line somewhere. Otherwise, why pursue it in the first place?

There won’t be any question of anyone being there who shouldn’t. ICU is not an open ward like others are. You have to buzzed in (in every hospital I’ve ever been in, anyway) Usually there is a door release button on the inside, so that anyone already in can get out or let in other people, but you are obviously not supposed to do that! I’ll eat my hat if that hasn’t been disabled and is now manned by security 24/7, if not a police presence the moment any changes are decided on.

Yes, she's wasn't brain dead, but past feeling pain etc, and she was moved to Italy, where they've amazingly weaned her off a ventilator and she's no longer in intensive care. She was moved on the basis of her religious beliefs.

I don't know what quality of life she had or if she has any awareness though, but she was much more 'well ' than Archie, although still in a very sad state with a dreadful prognosis.

There have also been a couple of cases where people have been confirmed as brain dead and whilst waiting for the people to connect their organs, have started to move etc, and made a decent recovery, to a point where they can discuss what happened etc.

So unexpected recoveries do happen, and mistakes can be made with dispositive e brain death, but with the people waking up, it was after days, not months, and the MRI findings are very conclusive here.

Neither do I. It’s very convenient

And when they do eventually withdraw ventilation I'm really concerned how they'll cope if he attempts to take any breaths independently. They are so ingrained in their belief now the hospital is trying to kill him I don't think they'll ever find any peace with any of this

There won’t be any breaths. That needs at least a swim functioning brain stem and he has none. One of the court documents reports that, in spite of Hollie’s over interpretation, Archie has never breathed above the ventilation. The ventilators are very sensitive and will pick up any genuine breathing attempt.

He won’t breathe at all, and Hollie knows it

Thinking about this being such a high profile case. Hollie must know deep down that Archie will die. I wonder if in her eyes she has nothing left to loose, so she may as well keep on going with the appeals for maximum publicity and make him as famous as possible.

This sounds harsher than I mean it to be, but I'm just trying to fathom what could possibly be going on in her head.

*semi - not swim!

Bearing in mind that he had an informal apnea test where the ventilator was stopped for 2min and he didn’t attempt to breathe at all. After 2 min there will be a CO2 rise that is a potent stimulus to breathe- and he didn’t

Someone commented on another forum that it's likely to have to go back to the Judge if Hollie won't agree a time/date for withdrawal of support with the medical team. no that’s not true.

The hospital can now legally withdraw life support at any time. The hope will obviously be that the family are there, and they could go to the judge to set a date and time in stone so to speak, but they don’t have to.

Thank you. That's what I wondered. There's so much out there and I didn't completely understand if he'd breathe at all on his own because other cases the children have and people here have reported their family members breathing.

It's really futile then allowing him to "live" like he is.

There should be dignity in death and he isn't getting any

Although it would mean further delay the hospital may be wise to get a date from the judge to cover themselves in case of accusations form the parents

They already have a date. The date was the day the court ruled that life support could be withdrawn.

It was specifically stipulated that there would be a delay of two days before life support was withdrawn in order to allow the appeal to the ECHR. That has now failed, so the life support needs to be removed.

The hospital aren’t legally culpable in any way at the moment. The only reason they are potentially delaying is to hopefully get the parents on board, going to court will be counter productive because it will cause more issues in the community behind Holly, I can just imagine now them talking about how Archie’s execution date has been set etc.

It would be far better for the hospital just to proceed now, and to make it clear that the parents should be there, but that the life support is going to be withdrawn regardless.

Everyone dies differently, for many the brain stem reflexes are the last to go, so a few gasps, irregular breathing.

Archie though, will die (is dead) because his brain is dead. He destroyed it by cutting of blood support to it for ? 40 min, the dying and damaged cells swelled up and the pressure increased and any local blood flow ceased. His brain died and parts of it dropped off down his spine.

There’s no functioning brain stem left for breathing attempts when the ventilation is stopped. His heart will beat for some minutes then it will over.

Sadly the above post is bang on. I've seen people online (haven't waded into the army stuff as I think I'd feel too angry), but what some people seemingly can't or won't understand is that for Archie there is literally no hope of recovery. Not even 'he may regain some form of consciousness but be severely physically and cognitively impaired for life'. No hope. Sadly he died weeks ago. The scan conducted in June (so you would expect further deterioration by now) showed that his cerebullar tonsils had been pushed outside of his skull, 50% of his brainstem was damaged, 20% of the tissue had become necrotic (died) and crumbled into his spine. It made for utterly grim reading. The parts of the brain that regulate consciousness, breathing, temperature regulation is also severly damaged beyond repair. The report leaves you with a clear picture that sadly he cannot ever recover, he is literally incapable of doing so. I also don't buy the internet challenge gone wrong narrative given his age (and presumed understanding of what hanging yourself by the neck from bannisters would result in) and the lack of any attempt to film or stream his actions.

As a parent, and a professional who works with patients in a persistent disorder of consciousness I completely understand believing any of this is possibly Hollie's worst nightmare. But then I also struggle to have empathy when she seems hellbent on ignoring anyone with any skills or expertise in the area and would rather believe Facebook and a group of fundamentalists. She is no longer acting in Archie's best interests at all.

And they don't get the irony that without life support he wouldn't be breathing.

I can't see why. Judge Hayden has already said the current situation is "wholly inimical" to Archie's welfare, so the hospital has the required authorisation to withdraw treatment. If they still had to get the parents' consent, all the previous hearings would have been pointless.

Looks like it's gone to the UN now.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-62346356

I wonder how long that will take? Every day is prolonging the process and delays the grieving process. But then his parents are doing that to themselves.

I do wish, in this case at least, once the court order has been blocked, that’s it. She can’t do anything else.

She is grieving. I know that. But enough is enough.

''All we have ever asked for is for more time''

Nearly 3 months of treating a dead body, in IC, on the NHS, is not enough?

How on earth does approaching the UN to do with violation of disabled people's rights have anything to do with Archie's situation?

It’s appalling that she is being aided in this irrational fog instead of being helped to come to terms with this terrible event. Those Christian lawyers should have been disbarred years ago.

Poor boy, releasing those photos was cruel.

I can only assume that due to a constant shortage of beds, other children who do / did have a chance of survival have missed out on vital care.

I hope they let him rest in peace as soon as possible.

No matter how much time she had, she would be asking for more. She seems to have this weird idea that there is some sort of right to as much time as you want when your relative is brain dead. By that token, when my mother was dying I could have insisted on an ITU bed for her keeping her breathing another six months whilst I had time to get used to the idea (mind you, she'd have been furious and come back to haunt me to tell me off if I had). We all would have that right, and ITU would be full of ventilated dead bodies. It's ludicrous.

Ffs.

will that stop the legal process here though? Not sure the UN have the right to intervene in the individual legal matters of states

So why have the hospital not switched off the life support now

Presumably because they're still trying to get the parents on board, which is unlikely to work. Given the family's (claimed) christian views I'd hoped that the "chaplin's" input might have helped, but possibly he's just one more who'll be considered in the wrong if he doesn't say exactly what they want to hear

Clearly Hollie will call the hospital murders if they end support without her agreement; it would make no sense of course, but as with much else that's unlikely to stop her saying it
So maybe in the end that's what will have to happen ...