So sending a picture of your breasts to Nuts magazine is empowering

[milfAKAmonkeymonkeymoomoo]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7150200.stm

But monkey...they're competing with each other to see who can be the most attractive to men. Not to see who can be the first to solve Fermat's theorem or write a Pulitzer prize winning novel.

All their validity is in what men think of them. And we've all become so immune to it that we think it's normal. Even healthy.

That is interesting that an attractive woman is more more likely to get raped (according to MT)

Yet DingDong said about rape being about power NOT sex is probably true yeah?

I was sexually assaulted (hate the word R) and I am attractive (so that goes with MT's theory) but I got the impression it was about power too....

men are stupid when it comes to images, it's up to women to draw the line (as if).

Margo, I agree, I don't think being fanciable is any kind of real power.

Margaret Thatcher wasn't powerful because she fitted some kind of beauty ideal, it was because she was a clever politician who took her opportunities when she saw them. Similarly Hillary Clinton, who might be the next US president (probably not) hasn't got to where she has on her looks, although she has had to modify them because that's what her sexist society demands. Arguably Monica Lewinsky was the more sexually attractive of the two of them, Bill Clinton certainly thought so, but Clinton is the one who might sit in the White House.

Competing for male attention is idiotic. Most women don't want the attentions of any more than one man (the one they fancy or love) so all the rest are superfluous. It's hardly power.

I think the 18-25 thing is probably jsut because women in that age group are out more, meeting more men and are more unprotected than other women (less likely to have their own car, husband, burglar alarm, secure locks). They are more likely to be in a situation where a sexual predator can attack them. Surely those types of factors skew the figures quite significantly?

maggie thatcher - clever?

power hungry more like, tried to be like a man.

It's not true that women who fit in with what society regards as attractive are more likely to be raped. Vulnerability is the key factor in how men choose rape victims.

Well that?s interesting again Ding Dong, because the thing about rape being about power and not sex is another feminist slogan that has entered the popular consciousness, and something that has always rang untrue with me. The evidence points to be being about both, as does common sense or else why would rape be rape an don?t just battery? It?s tricky I know. Too complicated for this time of night when you have to be up for little ones in the morning!

I see the feminist resistance to this though and understand it, because if rape has something to do with how you look, then it seems on a slippery slope that women can be blamed for dressing/being provocative. This is what happens in Islamic societies when a woman goes out without her head covered; ?she?s asking for it mentality?, which is patently ridiculous, but it is even present in western rape prosecution policy. But importantly, rape is a crime in most cultures also, that shouldn?t be forgotten, even if people get confused by circumstance.

I know, in an ideal world, women should be able to dress how they wish, flirt how they wish, even have foreplay as they wish and still be able to say ?no means no?, but also, in an ideal world, men should be able to go unaccosted down back alleys without being attacked and killed, or posture to show their masculinity in gangs without it ending in tragedy. The facts on crime stats tell us though that it is men who are in far greater danger of violence, from other men, when they leave the house, day or night. I am not trying to belittle one or the other, but pretending that women are the only victims of male aggression is a blind alley, because men by far out number them. Women are by far the biggest victims of sexual crime, yes. But I think ?battle? of the sexes has taken precedence over the cooperation of the sexes. That is not to say the battle isn?t there, but I don?t think men are the enemy, as much as they are their own, to any extent. I am a feminist who wants to help women. But I want to help them, their children and menfolk too, as that is what will make them happiest.

That was my understanding too Elizabethh.

The rape of elderly women suggests that vulnerability is the key to it.

Margo, couldn?t you see these things as one and the same. Why do they want to be the best man? To get the best women!

Ally, that isn?t my theory, but Home Office statistics. I would not proffer something so shocking and potentially upsetting if it didn?t have validating evidence behind it. And for the record, I have be assaulted three times in my life, but that unfortunately gives one no insight into the bigger picture of why these things happen.

Bella, it might be ? that?s why more research needs to be done! And yes Elizabeth, vulnerability is another important factor, as is if the purp is likely to be punished, which as rape stats show, is very low at the mo and may even be contributing to the problem.

If a woman wears a short mini skirt up to her ass and a skimpy top showing her norks EVERY DAY does this mean she is a slapper, asking for it, etc?

v. interesting everyone, i am now off to watch telly... thanks for a good debate

No, it doesn't Ally.

MT - well that is how I dress and I was sexually assaulted. Why can't a woman wear what she wants?

'Is's' and 'ought's' though are very different things. It's the difference between numbers and morals. African's are the most abused people on earth; they are human and hence ought not to be; Stating the former fact does not invalidate the moral dilemma which comes next.

That's how I was dressed too the first time. We live in a world populated with human's is why it sometimes goes wrong is the answer. Serioulsy expecting us to be angels is not going to get us anywhere.

I might as well ahev expected to hear real sleigh bells on my roof last week. Laws exist becasue humans can be just as terrible as they can be wonderful.

Thanks for your reply MT. You sound like a great person.

Can I ask how you got over your ordeal?

Oh, mave on a different thread Ally. It isn;t something I want to discuss when in 'logical' mode. CAT me if you like.

MT I have been on mumsnet for 2 years but have no idea how to CAT .

Message withdrawn

Message withdrawn

Ally, to be honest, I don?t really know how I got over it; time mostly. They all happened when I was a teen, the most vulnerable and most over represented in rape stats, for whatever reason. I had a lot of baggage in my 20s but pulled myself together when I hit 30 and really, I do recognise myself as the girl I was, there are some vestiges of her left within me, but they don?t dominate anymore and I don?t tend to think of myself as a ?victim? of anything anymore. I have my son?s happiness to concentrate on, and his happiness depends on mine, so I try to be positive and constructive in everything I do. It works.

But I have no wish to hijack this thread with this, so I hope it can carry on as before.

MotherFunk, if you are beautiful you would be foolish not to use it - any anyway, you cannot help but use it as in my expereince, people react to it whether you want them to or not, for better or worse.

What isn't bridged well today is that passage from nubile young beauty to middle age. Women just don't seem to be allowed to age gracefully anymore.

My sister made me laugh a few months ago when the Morinio affair was in all the papers and there was a rather unflattering picture of his wife next to his mistress. She said, "Well with his money there's just no excuse for letting yourself go like that." !! Damned if you do, damned if you don't seems to be the norm.

And there is much made of the male mid-life crisis, but think the female one can be just as traumatic.

Just another thought Ally, there have been times (and I'm ashamed to say they still outnumber the good years) when I was a complete wanker and pain in the arse!

and think the victim status contributed to that.

Right, will stop talking to myself now!