So sending a picture of your breasts to Nuts magazine is empowering

[milfAKAmonkeymonkeymoomoo]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7150200.stm

I laughed at MF's comments that her looks have helped futher her career . She has said throughout this thread that 'she' is very good-looking. Is it just me, or does anyone think this is a tad vain to say this? I am a very modest, shy person though so...

No MF. I just think equating male admiration with self-esteem and empowerment, is absurd.

There's nothing wrong with having it as a facet of your self-esteem; but let's face it, the whole culture of "assess my breasts" is not about seeing women as full human beings, but about being acceptable tit carriers/ cunt carriers / arse carriers (excuse the vulgarity). It is not encouraging women to value their attractiveness to men as one small part of their humanity, but as the whole point of their existence.

Is MF a call girl? (only joking MF ) it's just that I noticed you work weekends (at night) so wondering what you do that makes you have to look so good for men .

What shift/weekend worker has to look especially good for a man .

LOL Chrissy, the same did occur to me!
in fact, i was imagining MF sitting at home typing into the PC and actually being a dot cotton looky-likey pmsl

.. was responding to Chrissy's 19:23 post...

Your sexuality is a huge empowerer. If you can use i, why not? I wasn't that confident, though I had the goods. Im just enjoying what power is left in them before it fades away to nothing. I think it might be offensive to many people, but I really don't see anymore how it is oppressive.

And I used to think it was oppressive, but am questioning my own feminist comfort zones on this.

Hang on, I think it's unfair to make bitchy comments about MF just because you don't agree with her opinion.

I for one don't like the NUTS/ZOO culture. Makes me feel very queasy.

Ruty, come on, I know you are lurking

I would like to know what MF does for a living that makes her say that her looks have got her where she is today and she plays on that and has climbed the career ladder because of her looks - again .

I think the proof that sexuality for women isn't empowering is that men never ever talk about being "empowered" by their sexuality. They don't need to because they have access to real power not the false consolation prize that so-called sexual power is.

The women who are seen as the most attractive sexually by our society are those in their late teens and early to mid-twenties (not saying I agree with this of course, but it's the general consensus). I don't think anybody would agree that they are a powerful group, in fact you could argue that they are quite vulnerable.

MotherFunk still hasn't explained what power men seeing a woman as sexually attractive actually bestows. I do think ego is being confused with power here, although they are different things.

I mean if female sexuality means power then wouldn't women be able to use that power to stop themselves being raped for example? That doesn't happen however - in fact being female makes a person more of a target for sexual crimes.

Sleighbells, "My point is that the dangers of getting your empowerment from male approval of your looks, is a very short-term empowerment strategy. It works in a world where women all die around the age of 40 and have very easy lives. In a world where we can expect to live until 80, I think we should be looking elsewhere for our self-esteem and empowerment, than just our physical attributes."

I think you are on to something here. It is empowering when you are young. You can get moderate to great fiscal reward for it, and you are hightening your exposure to the best males too.

It is offensive to judge women only on their youthful physical atributes, and many past their prime may feel 'oppressed' by it - or some women who have never had that will. That is an issue, but it is unrealsitic to think women who do have it won't trade on it. That is, I think, a fact of life.

Women are competative and maybe we feel it's 'unfair' that a beautiful woman can trade on her looks, but it has always happened, and always will.

Consumerism is the problem perhaps. But it brings so many positives also maybe we just have to stomach the negatives as we get older. And as for 'invisible', women have always had the power to choose more than men. The whole beauty contest thing is a direct attempt to subvert this - to give them the choice (when their were all men panels) but again, so what? When it comes to sex, women hold all the cards!

I dunno the answer, just trying to work out the facts BTW.

My looks helped me in my career. I was an actor.

sorry, wasn't being bitchy on purpose, just an imaginary scenario

I am wondering about the use of the term "empowerment" here.

"Your sexuality is a huge empowerer" - what does that actually mean MT? Do you mean it makes you feel good, that you can revel in feeling the effect of your sexiness on men? How is that empowering? Yes, it's ego-boosting, it's pleasant, it's fun, it's a confidence builder - but empowering? What does empowerment mean in this context?

er, no. Cos there are different types of power, Eliz.

And being an attractive woman makes one even more vulnerable to sexual crime.

Elizabethh you are so right, I am going to stalk you

I always think that. The day men go to pole dancing lessons at their local gym is the day I will agree that we have some form of equality.

hmmmm i don't think rapists are more likely to go for pretty girls/women, monkeytrousers.. slightly dodgy ground, that!

Heh Margo, I always imagine George Bush and Dick Cheney doing a pole-dancing sesh at the White House in their tiny thongs if sexual display is so empowering. Of course that imaginary scenario, shows exactly how much power (or rather lack of it) the performers have in that situation.

Hmm.

What a disturbing image.

Bella, I really don?t know what it means when it?s used in feminist terms anymore. It seems to have reached the level of being an empty slogan, the meaning understood 20 years ago and never discussed since. I apologise, cos even me, trying to challenge my own comfort zones about this, still slide into meaningless rhetorical statements and phrases.

For me personally, empowerment means feeling confident, not being invisible etc, able to assert yourself truly as you are, physically or socially (though the two always come together, so to speak, you are always who you feel as well as who you look like).

When you are ?in the game? and looking for a partner, it is all about one-upmanship. This, I?m sure is why cosmetics and cosmetic surgery is so popular. Males compete with each other on different levels, but they compete with each other for women (and hence, children). Women can usually always get sex, men can?t. This is why rape is almost unknown amongst women, and certainly to any extent that laws need to be made to stop it. If women had sex like men, i.e. as much as they think they would like it, rape would not exist! After you find a partner, and especially after you have kids your priorities change though.

We are not used as a species to being inundated with images of highly sexualise images though, and there is evidence that not just sexual, but cosmetic images make us miserable. This is something that needs more research to tease out the details. But it is fascinating.

Margo, pole dancing is competition between females, it actually has little to do with men, except they like watching beautiful women and women have caught on to that. Pole dancing itslef is a new phenomenon, trying to be more sexy than the next girl, isnt'.

Ding dong, it isn;t dodgy ground. The last thing I read from the Home office explicity stared that women aged 25-18 were the most at risk, especiually if they were awauy from home. It's scary, I agree. And maybe we don;t like to think of young women as being the most sexually attarctive, but as Elizabeth said, that is the consensus.

yes I agree that is probably correct monkeytrousers.. when i think of what i used to get up to at that age i am sure i was more vulnerable than i am now! (e.g. being less streetwise, travelling alone at night and so on). however i do dispute the idea that a rapist goes on looks - because of that thing about rape being about power, not sex. or something.

"And maybe we don;t like to think of young women as being the most sexually attarctive, but as Elizabeth said, that is the consensus."

I think this is sadly true.

Not a very nice feeling, being made aware that you are somehow less valid as a woman due to factors entirely outside your control, such as your age.

(apols for therapy type speak there !)