OK for people to be called Muhammad, but not a teddy bear (not in Sudan anyway)

[WendyWeber]

Poor woman

40 lashes???

I love the calm quote from the Muslim teacher at the school:

"I was just impressed that she got them to vote"

These are 6-7 year-olds, they chose the alternative names and they voted for Muhammad (also the name of the most popular boy in the class apparently) and most of the parents are fine with it - just one fanatic took offence from the sound of it.

"slim - Would you care to provide a Sura or Hadith where it is forbidden for Muslims to depict ANY person? I would be interested to learn, if there is such a thing. "

Cote d'Azur,I do not know of any Surat or Hadiths directly expressing that. That's what we are discussing here exactly. we are at the mercy of a small bunch nutters who have taken over normative interpretaion and find/extrapolate justrification in the Qur'an to serve whatever paranoid purpose of the day is!

Needmorecoffee {{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
We are at different ends of the spectrum of obviously but with the same purpose, restoring Islam's good name in view of such bizarre events.
Maybe you can clarify the above?

Cote D'azur, the point I'm making above was exactly illustrated above by needmorecofee on the subject of modest dress. interpretation,interpretaion,interpretaion.
And then I'm afraid some more interpretaion on what sort of punishement is fitting for unmodest muslim women like you and me.

Bonaventura, that struggle between moderates and "extremists" is the sad stae of events in muslim societies!

That's why it is very important for muslims living without fear of reprisal in the west to engage in public debate. Wether strictly practicing or secular, we have to talk to each other and to "infidels"

I have questions....

If the name is a no no why are there so many Muslim people called Muhammad (including DS2's bestest mate at school)?

If it was a 7 year old child that named the bear will he be taken out and lashed (rules is rules)?

If using the name is such an insult would a Muslim child not know this was a inappropriate name for a stuffed bear? (mummy and daddy slacking on their Koran lessons)?

Why has Gorden Brown not stepped in?

AND THE BIG ONE.....IF a Muslim teacher named a stuffed toy Jesus would we take her in to the streets and whip her... NO WE BLOODY WELL WOULD NOT as we are civilized human beings and not hung up about a bloody name.

I hope this poor woman is release (without the lashing) and gets straight on a plane home.

Its considered an honour to call your son after the prophet. I'm guessing cos his named is revered its seen as a bit insulting to call a teddy bear that. The 7 yo's probably just knew it was an homoured name.
You are asking questions nly the sudansese can answer.
Why would Gordon Brown step down?
As for a teddy called Jesus, the UK isn't really a Christian country anymore (church attendence is like 4%) so no-one would care.

we're also a secular Govt but you can bet your knickers that if fundie Christians were ever in charge you'd see burning stakes and stoning. There are whole groups of fanatics in the US who want to seea return to biblical punishments. You see them praying over nuclear warheads hoping the things will kill unbelievers. They are equally as bad as the Islamic fanatics. Both lots uneducated as to what their own books say or picking and choosing out of context. A biblical Govt would have you put to death for working on the sabbath, you couldn't be alone wiht a woman not your wife unless you enjoy a stoning. Insulting the name 'Jehovah' is also punishable by death. Adultery, another stoning. And it all used to be carried out too.
But thank goodness for a seperation of church and state. Something the right wing fundies in the US are desperatly fighting against. They want to see a biblical Govt. It would be just as awful as living in an Islamic state like Saudi or the Sudan.
So westertners can quit feeling smug. We have laws that keep looneys down - at the moment, but it hasn't always been like that and there's no guarantee it always will be.

I said GB should step in not down.

As for England not being a Christian country anymore, I'm not just talking England, ANY Christian country would not go to such lengths as to whip a woman who called a toy Jesus, its just not on.

I have the greatest respect for what ever religion a person has as it is personal choice but for petes sake its just a bloody name.

It is things like this that fuel anti Muslim feeling, and most of the Muslims I know are lovely people and not in the least bit nutty.

we are looking at this from a westernised view, in a (supposed) free economy...

to be honest she should have realised that this was unexceptable for a white, western woman to do, and shown respect for islamic beliefs.

the only reason this is 'news' is because she might be given 40 lashes.

i don't condone this action, but she should have been aware that this could be contraversicial. isn't she a RE teacher?

Isawetc, you ever visited some catholic countries and seen women ostracised and cast out for a bit of naughtiness? I grew up in Ireland and it was bloody awful.
It might not be whipping but it can be just as horrible.
In Colorado Springs dentists wont treat you unless you are Christian, they leave you in agony.
Religous nutters are religious nutters, its just that they get, to our eyes, harsher punishment in non-western countries.
And we are looking with western eyes and whipping seems barbaric to us. But incarceration of children and execution of mentally disabled people are pretty barbaric. Goes on in western lands. Letting disabled babies die goes on in wetsern lands.
No country is perfect and no way of life is perfect. Sure, this poor lady is facing an awful punishment for being a bit dim, but we got a load of motes in our own eye to deal with first.
And this has made the news cos she is a white woman. I don't see anyone joining Amnesty and campaigning for women's rights in the Sudan to prevent death for adutery or female circumcision or young women with fistula's being ostracised. I don't see the cries of outrage when a learning disabled couple have their baby taken away by the State, or disabled children are denied a decent education or endless injustices here.
Seems that we, and the media, are selective in our outrage.
But maybe this one case will lead all of us on this list to campaigning for debt relief, female rights, disabled rights etc etc

Her treatment is unacceptable and I hope she is free soon.

But I'm suprised she called the teddy bear that. I know its not allowed and I'm hardly an expert on religion.

How dare you call her 'a bit dim'. She's an educated teacher, kind, intrepid, and good at her job. She was formerly a head teacher in the UK. It's not enough that she's persecuted, imprisoned and threatened with barbaric punishment, eh, she needs to be insulted to?
And no, she wasn't an RE teacher. She never mentioned religion in her class.
This case has got nothing to do with 'respect' for Islamic beliefs. She allowed the children (from various backgrounds) to name a teddy after themselves! Nothing to do with any religious figure at all.
How on earth was she to guess that in this backward, terrible country allowing children to name a teddy the same name as half the boys in the room would lead to her incarceration? None of the children knew, none of the parents complained.
And as it happens, many of us are members of Amnesty. Many of us give to the several WESTERN charities especially set up to help the women with fistulas who are rejected by their own communities. There is a damn sight more campaigning against female circumcision from Western campaigners than from within the Muslim world.
Yes, it's British news because she is British - and because it is a clear and obvious outrage.

I'm amazed that it got to this point without someone pointing out that it might not be a good idea to give the bear that name.

aahhh, i see, an outrage.

i think being incarcerated for 28 days without due process as an outrage.

this isn't in Sudan, but here in the UK!

and this law was buried by 'outrage' over bloody foxes.

honestly, if there wasn't the prospect of her being lashed, people wouldn't be interested.

she is in a political and religious crisis of a country and she should have known better.

whilst casbie is riht that we are all being fucked up the arse with civil liberties here in the uk and lying back and taking it like a whore - this does not serve as an excuse for the poor behaviour of other countries.

now,

nowhere in the quoran does it say " you cant call teddybears by the name of mohammed"

it just doesn't - if she had attempted to draw an image of mohammed - then - fine i would call her a bit dim considering wehre she is.

i think that i personally would have exercised a little more caution - but who knows - maybe after some time of the local community being nice to you - you forget that thngs can change and spin on a ha'penny.

I think as the class came up with the name, I would probably have assumed it was ok too.

Defo agree it was poor judgement knowing what she knows about the coutry where she is.

Yet the paranoid disproportionate reaction of the authorities is uncalled for.

BTW who alerted them. One of the parents?

would imagine so - she send a letter home witht he children

I can't believe the number of people on here who blame the teacher! "Oh she should have known."

Arresting her over this matter shows the medieval, barbaric, backward, irrational face of fundamentalist political Islam. It just goes to show how much it hates the West, was looking for offense, will take enormous pleasure in having a white Christian woman, who does not shroud herself in black, who dares to enter their country and teach their children, publicly whipped or imprisoned.

I can t believe the people who are saying: Oh the West is just as bad. We have rule of law, freedom of expression, religious tolerance, a woman's word in court is equal to a man's, women are not owned by male family members, rape victims are not stoned to death (see Saudi story this week), we have educational equality...

Any British Muslim who lives here and condemns this woman and says she should be punished(as many do on the BBC website) should go and live under Sharia law, see how they enjoy it, they have about 19 countries to choose from, see if they feel freer living under that system. Ah, no, I thought not.

Yes, it is a bloody outrage. It is disgusting, medieval and barbaric. And anyone who doesn't think so is equally disgusting, medieval and barbaric. Casbie, you should be ashamed of yourself. That poor woman was out there teaching children, and this is how they repay her. I agree with Dullwitch.

yes, it is an outrage - but is a small outrage in comparison to other outrages going on in Sudan.

it is only because she is threatened with 40 lashes that this white woman keeps on coming up in the news.

incredible as it may seem, not everyone is part of a liberal western society.

she knew where she was going and that it would be dangerous for her... but as all is said and done, she is living in a society which has it's own laws. and she should make herself aware and be humble before them.

i don't condone what has happened to her, but can understand why it happened.

i cant understand why it happened? tell me

You know the only real mistake this woman made? She assumed that those tall people walking around were actually adults with functioning brains.

Elenya

do you think insulting other cultures helps at all?

It is not only because of the 40 lashes that this keeps coming up in the news.

It's because it is literally unbelievable - and a fucking outrage - that a kind and innocent woman's actions are being misinterpreted like this.

"she should make herself aware and be humble before them". None of the parents who are natives of Sudan and presumably know the law there - as well as anybody can - thought it necessary to say "no, don't" when they were informed about the teddy bear diary, so maybe they should all be jailed too?

Sheesh.

I am a Northern Protestant living in Catholic dominated Republic of Ireland. Neither the Hindu lady who sold me my paper nor my two teenagers thought it was a good choice of name for a teddy. I think she should have known, or someone enlightened might have pointed that out to her. I don't think an Irish or Liverpudlian bear would be called Jesus. (And the regime and punishment in the Sudan is horrifying).